Brontosaurus

Actually, the following three species were all described by Marsh in 1877: Apatosaurus ajax, Atlantosaurus ajax and Brontosaurus ajax. All three have since been rendered synonymous, though Bakker had attempted to resurrect B. ajax in 1986, and Steel attempted the same with Atlantosaurus ajax in 1970. However, since there isn’t sufficient reason to separate the latter two from Apatosaurus, both attempts failed.

It should be noted, however, that things could well have been different: when Riggs re-examined Apatosaurus, and its type species A. ajax, the A. ajax specimens were too young and fragmentary to allow for a reliable species designation. He could well have used this information to argue against Apatosaurus as a valid genus and used Brontosaurus as the valid taxon, instead.

Incidently, when Marsh first described Brontosaurus excelsus and Apatosaurus ajax, he recognized them as closely related. However, he fell victim to a very low sample size: the differences he noted (number of fused sacral vertebrae) turned out to be due to age (the A. ajax specimens were juveniles), not differences between genera - something that’s difficult to tell when you’ve only got two or three specimens total between the two supposed genera. Also, the fact that Marsh did not officially describe the genus Brontosaurus until 1879 (with B. excelsus as the type, rather than B. ajax) established a definite priority for Apatosaurus (though, as noted above, Riggs could have argued that Apatosaurus was not valid).

And, as yet another side note, Marsh described Brontosaurus montanus in 1877 as well. This fellow, based on fragmentary material, was later referred to the genus Atlantosaurus.

Nominative masculine plural

JWK: I noticed that as soon as I’d posted. “How could ‘people’ be singular?” I shouted to myself. I was hoping no-one would notice.

When my son was younger, he was a big dinosaur freak, always corrected people who said “bronotosaurus.”
Until he heard it used by leading paleontolgists
Stepen J. Gould
Jim Kirkland
Jim Bakker Not sure of first name - the guy with the crushes straw hat)

"Nuf said.

That would Robert “Bob” Bakker.

Thanks - Jim Baker, I now remember, was a VERY DIFFERENT PERSON.:smack:

That’s because they are all based on the same specimen (YPM 1860). “Atlantosaurus ajax” and “Brontosaurus ajax” are junior objective synonyms of Apatosaurus ajax.

What was Steel’s reason for resurrecting Atlantosaurus?

B. montanus” was originally “Titanosaurus montanus”. It became the type species of Atlantosaurus when Marsh learned the name Titanosaurus was preoccupied by an Indian sauropod. Who put this species in Brontosaurus?

The information presented here certainly seems to imply that Atlantosaurus ajax was originally described by Marsh as a separate species from Apatosaurus ajax. Similarly, this page implies the same for Brontosaurus ajax. And, here, one can find a list of all species/genera named and described by O. C. Marsh. Note that each of the species I mentioned in my previous post exist as separate entries (even though many later became synonyms).

If a genus is found to be a junior synonym, all species under the new genus are not retroactively assigned as synonyms under the old genus. That is, unless B. ajax existed as a taxon prior to Brontosaurus being referred to Apatosaurus, there would be no reason for the name Brontosaurus ajax to exist at all. That B. excelsus became A. excelsus would not mean that A. ajax automatically becomes synonymous with a non-existent B. ajax. You have to have pre-existing material with a pre-existing name for them to become synonyms.

If the above is not the case, then it would seem that I am more confused than I thought!

Further, synonyms for the Apatosaurus ajax type specimen, YPM 1860, (that I could find) are only Apatosaurus laticollis and Atlantosaurus immanis.

Could you perhaps direct me to sources which might clarify the status of all the ajax names?

The confusion here is simply resolved. The most famous Aptosaurus’ first name was “Brontosaurus.” His mother, Pricillus Aptosaurus, named him after her grandfather, so he was acutally Brontosaurus Aptosaurus Jr. His father (Ajax) abandoned him, and ran off with a Tricerotops named Trixi who danced at the local bar on Saturday nights. His friends called him “Bronty” but paleontologists, who tend to be more formal, called him “Mr Aptosaurus”. I hope this clears this up.

Please note: Cecil was asked whether brontosaurus had two brains, he was not asked whether brontosauruses actually existed. And, I’m not sure of the date of this column, but it may pre-date the point at which paleontology decided that there was no brontosaurus. Cecil is never wrong, he said so himself.

“(Marsh, 1877/Steel, 1970)” means Marsh 1877 gets credit for describing the species (as Apatosaurus ajax), and Steel 1970 gets credit for referring the species to the genus Atlantosaurus.

If Marsh had been using “Atlantosaurus ajax” in 1877, what did Steel do that deserves mention?

The intent of that list appears to be to list all names ever used for species Marsh described, not just the names that Marsh used himself.

If Marsh originally created “Atlantosaurus ajax” and “Brontosaurus ajax” separate from Apatosaurus ajax, what are the type specimens of the former two species?

I have to admit I don’t understand this sentence.

It didn’t. The combination “Brontosaurus ajax” was first used by Bakker in 1986. Riggs synonymized Apatosaurus and Brontosaurus in 1903.

According to the ICZN, there is no reason for the name “Brontosaurus ajax” to exist. Bakker’s defence:

Bakker only uses “Brontosaurus ajax” because he doesn’t use Apatosaurus at all. All species of Apatosaurus, including the type species, were treated by Bakker as species of Brontosaurus.

I never meant to imply that it would.

Apatosaurus laticollis” and “Atlantosaurus immanis” do come from the same quarry as YPM 1860, and are indistinguishable from A. ajax, but they each had distinct type specimens. Remember, Marsh liked to name just about every fossil he could find.

Donald Glut’s Dinosaurs: The Enclcyclopedia (1997) is a good source for looking up the history of a species in the dinosaur literature. I also checked John McIntosh’s reviews of sauropod species in Dinosaur Systematics: Approaches and Perspectives (Carpenter & Currie, eds., 1990) and The Dinosauria (Weishampel, Dodson, & Osmolska, eds., 1990).

Oddly enough, I have two out of the three (I don’t have Glut’s book; I have a book by Glut, but not that one) - I just forgot I had them. Especially Dinosaur Systematics, since it’s been ages since I read it. You learn somethin’ new every day!

I have reading to do…

And I just ordered Dinosaurs: the Encyclopedia. With both supplements. Ouch.

Thanks for info, Sauroposeidon.

No, not a literal dinosaur, but I do have two brains.

CalMeacham said:

What? Mahi-mahi is dolphin?! I thought it was a type of tuna?

http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/cr_seafoodwatch/sfw_factsheet.asp?gid=11

I guess I misunderstood your statement. Mahi-mahi is the dolphinfish, not the dolphin.

It is dolphin, but dolphin the fish (Coryphaena hippurus) rather than dolphin the mammal. It is called dolphinfish and mahi-mahi, but it is just called dolphin as well.

Not to be nitpicky, but it’s actually canis familiarus.

:smiley:

And to be really nitpicky, it’s currently Canis lupus familiaris.

One below the waist, I assume? :wink:

Is the lupus (sorry, still don’t know how to italicize in this BB program) name meant to infer that familiaris is a sub-species of wolf? Or further that the DNA of common dogs is virtually indistinguishable from that of wolves, as a zoologist I saw on TV remarked pointedly?

Dogs are a subspecies of wolf, just as the domestic cat is a subspecies of the kaffir cat.