Brushes with the divine?

My impression from believers is that these kinds of stories are the reason that they’re believers. Religious apologists are always coming up with philosophical or historical arguments, such as the cosmological argument or the argument from morality, but in my experience no one is a believer because of these - they’re just used to prop up the faith of the already faithful. They give the faithful the impression that the beliefs they’ve come to for non-rational reasons are indeed based in rationality, so they can just put those doubts away.

But for all those people who believe because of their personal experiences, they seem to already understand that their personal stories won’t be convincing to an atheist (see the earlier posts in this thread of believers who are hesitant to share those stories).

But here’s what I don’t get: they already realize that their stories won’t convince me, but if I put myself in their shoes and those things had happened to me, it still wouldn’t even come close to convincing me that these are actual signs for a god.

What I want to tell these people is that not only do their stories not convince me, they shouldn’t convince them either!

The stories are always about this feeling of love and/or awe, typically coupled with some coincidence in their life, but those are just normal human feelings that we know about without having to postulate a god.

This is always the go-to answer once a believer has run out of pat answers. “It is not for us to know” is the most convenient end to any discussion ever.

I am open to the idea, but I don’t believe it to be the case.

The discussion is of the God of the Bible. The view that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent is the orthodox view of Christianity. Have you never experienced something you knew you could never understand, no matter how hard you tried? We’re talking about the whole of the universe here, and all of time, and of realms unknown by the human senses.

See, this is why I told you to use a concordance. If I pick some verses to support my POV, you’ll just tell me I’m cherry picking. If I tried to give the whole subject its due, I’d need a whole series of threads.

Reading the Bible is not the same as studying the Bible. How much information do you have on how, when and who wrote the books, and for whom? Do you have historical and cultural background? Are you conversant with other religions and comparative religion?

And why do you consistently ask these questions as if there’s only one right answer? I’ve oft remarked about the wide diversity of opinion on these subjects throughout the history of Christianity, but these remarks you have steadfastly ignored.

As far as Jesus’s words, there are four Gospels. Almost all of what Jesus said is recorded in them, and they disagree in places amongst themselves. So, what do you mean when you say you know what Jesus said? Do you read koine Greek?

Okay, yes, it seems unfair.

If those same singing angels came to you again and told you to do something, would you do it?

Human knowledge is finite, sorry about that. If someday it can all be explained, great, but the idea that some things may be beyond the human capacity to understand, while one that doesn’t give a feeling of intellectual satisfaction, is a tenable possibility, IMHO.

Great question. Am I capable of fanaticism? It would depend on what it was, and, even then, I couldn’t say for sure. If it imperiled my family, I’m sure I’d be more than a little reluctant.

Maybe what happened to you was appealing because it was vague-pleasant but without detail, words with no meaning, supposed enlightenment without direction. Easy to take in because you played the easy part of the audience.

I can’t argue with that. As I’ve said, I don’t know why me, why then, or what the purpose was.

Brushes with God are never easy to explain to people that want real miracles … sometimes it is just a leaning to do things God’s way, a suggestion, an unction or a connection with the written word of God.

My connection started with the New York Stock exchange closing my office in Plainview, New York due a sales person promising a profit on a time share venture.

This was a no no and after a brief investigation we were closed down … I was divorced with a 16 year old daughter and had $600 dollars and an old Ford van. We had been living at the expense of the company and when they stopped paying the bills we had to load up the van and take off.

We made it to Atlanta, Ga when I felt a heavenly presence enter the van while driving the freeway with downtown Atlanta on my right and all of a sudden I told my daughter, “I think Atlanta is going to be in my future and very important someday”

We travelled on till the money ran out in Houston, Texas … My daughter got a job at Mac Donalds and moved in with a teenaged fry cook. I stayed in the van on the streets of Houston and got a day job as a photographer and it was okay, but I missed the day to day life as a salesman.

I was down to one suit, one tie, one pair of shoes when I got the phone call that the company I had worked for in Long Island New York had started back up again and that I could get my old job back if I was willing to move to Atlanta.

Was I willing? and on top of that the vision while driving through Atlanta was now coming true. Wish it had a happy ending, but after a couple of months in Atlanta the company closed again, but this time I was really broke and both of the company officer’s were gone off to California unable to write a check.

I took off again with just enough gas to make it back to Houston and get my old job back as a photographer, but on the way back to Houston I spot a sign that said, “High Island” exit. I had always wanted to see it due to it’s being on the other side of Galveston. So I took the exit and drove through some beautiful country flat with rice fields all the way to the ferry at high island.

Here I was down, but not out and living like I was on vacation or something. So I decided for one more side trip up and down the main drag of Galveston for old times sakes of having been here in my high school years.

That’s when I came across a brand new just finished time share resort across from the beach near the west end of Galveston. I stopped and inquired within to find out that the main office was in Houston. I drove to my daughters place and got cleaned up and the next day I went to the offices of this brand new time share resort.

The man that interviewed me had those special blue eyes that you always think belong to an angel. He was the vice-president of the company and he asked me why they should he hire me, since my last job had been closed down by the New York Stock exchange?

I told him that I would make him the best salesman he had ever had, just please give me one more chance to prove it.

He did too and told me to report to work in Galveston the next day.

I borrowed $20 and moved to Galveston, Texas in my old van with one suit, one tie and one pair of shoes (all in good shape mind you). I run into one male sales manager and three sales ladies and one female secretary. The customers were few and the rotation of sales people netted you perhaps two lookee loou’s a day, but I hung in there.

I slept in my van and got to work early enough to wash my clothes and swimn in the pool and use the towels they provided for the guest. It was a very nice place like a really nice hotel, but of course all the rooms were owned by the guest for the week they stayed there.

Two days off a week to lay in the sun on the beach, but no sales on a comission only salary and down to five dollars after borrowing another $20 in Houston from a friend. I was alone on the beach at night in my van and after having spent $2.00 of my last five dollars for a hamburger. I started crying to the Lord, a Lord that I did not know, a Lord that I had not known since sunday school as a youth.

I confessed all of my mistakes to him not knowing that what I had done is confessed my sins and casted all my cares on Him and fell asleep peacefully with the knowledge that I had tried my best and that I would have to go in and announce my failure to the sales manager the next day.

I got up late that morning and by the time I drove in everyone was already at work. I walked in the back door and the sales manager saw me and said, “Oh there you are” “You’ve been here two weeks haven’t you”? and he turns and opens up a file cabinet and hands me a check for $250.

I was speechless for you see no one had told me it was $500 a month guranteewhen I went to work and this was the first check for the month to be paid every two weeks.

I’ll leave out the joy part of being able to fill up with gas, eat a real meal and go see my daughter in Houston too.

Two weeks later I broke all sales records selling eight time shares to one family for the busy season of July fourth which was the highest price they had. I made $3,000 after taxes and the rest of the story will have to wait … because this has taken too long already.

It was God and yet I did not know him … that would take three more years.

Your god is mundane.

Wait, angels sell time shares now? Seems more like a job for the guys on the other team.

Far from it … my God is a wonderful God, a beautiful God, an all powerful God.

A God of mercy

He will have mercy on who he will have mercy and compassion on who he will have compassion … it does not depend on man’s deeds nor on man’s desires, but on the mercy of God.

Book of Romans

I’ve got those big, pale sparkly blue eyes and I think you’re story is more dismal than miraculous. And I’m more concerned with your daughter’s apparent lack of guidance and happiness. Did the Lord leave her in the dust while you er, uh…prospered?

No, I loved and respected my grandfather. He was a good man, a hard worker for the benefit of others, and extremely intelligent and well-read.

However, Instead of devoting hours to trying to convince theists that he was smarter than they were, he devoted his time and energies to improving the lot of the working people.
Again, I am not a bible literalist, so your attempts to pull the wool from my eyes are a bit beside the point.

I don’t think it’s reasonable to put experiences in the context of “fair vs. unfair”. In my experience, at least, the ways in which I experience God’s presence is different depending on the circumstances. The actual intense spiritual experiences aren’t very common for me or, as it seems, for other people either. Most often it’s just a general sense, recurrence of a theme, or just plain coincidence. It’s quite possible that for people who don’t experience it that maybe they haven’t had a need for it. Or maybe it’s like an extra sense, where you could have a sign with big bold letters on it, but if you don’t turn your head or your eyes are shut, you don’t see it.

At least for me, my experiences with God are definitely not a quid pro quo sort of experience. Perhaps in some complicated way, a particular idea or guidance will affect other people, and I’m sure they do with how connected we all are. But it’s much more like the guidance of a teacher or a parent, in that they just give without any expectation of some sort of return. Any time I’ve had that experience, it’s always had a direct impact on my life. If anything, it seems odd to me to expect that there would be some sort of condition on it

I touched on this upthread, but I think it’s worth repeating. I don’t think the point of these experiences is to change my mind or the minds of other people. Sure, I imagine some people are converted by them, but in that sense, they were probably already open to conversion. I don’t think the source of the message is meaningful, and I don’t think God even particularly cares if he “gets credit” for it or not.

I’ll use an example from my youth. I was about 13 or 14 and my best friend had his first girlfriend and things were going quickly. His mom was concerned about him rushing into it, getting hurt, and particularly about protection, but she didn’t feel he was receptive when she talked to him about it. She talked to me and asked me to talk to him, so I did, and he agreed to wait and said he would use protection. She never got pregnant. Maybe my discussion with him had some impact, maybe it didn’t, but looking back at it, do you think his mom cares if I “get credit” for that conversation? All she really cares about is that her son didn’t make a big mistake.

Congratulations for being a stand-up guy who single-handedly prevented an unwanted teen pregnancy. Your trophy is in the mail. Now please explain why you did nothing to prevent the millions of unwanted teen pregnancies worldwide, including those pregnancies which resulted in unspeakable hunger, abuse, neglect, and born hopelessly drug-addicted or diseased?

I know how you feel. I find the bile spewed by Christians equally repulsive. But unlike you, I don’t understand it.

That’s the problem, isn’t it?

I think it is important whether the thing is caused by biochemical reactions or a supernatural being. What started all this was another thread where Prof. Pepperwinkle was of the opinion that said “winged cherub” probably didn’t think homosexuality was a for sure repulsive sin (though might be) but other things like fornication was. IMHO, if you get rid of the baseless superstition, you also get rid of the baseless prejudice.

That’s a contradictory answer. Is man predestined to heaven or hell or not? Paul wrote that they are. So in your opinion is Paul writing the word of God, or just giving another of his errant opinions?