Cite?
These experiences are given as proofs of gods, at least personal proofs. If they are non-specific natural phenomenon then they aren’t much in the way of evidence.
Do you make it a habit of following beings and causes that according to your own reasoning are unjust? What makes you do so?
I thought time shares were kind of a scam. Would Jesus sell time shares?
So you’re god sends some to heaven and some he tortures in hell, and it has nothing to do with a man’s deeds or desires? Nice guy.:dubious:
Do you believe people (including your grandfather) can inherit eternal life even if they do not take Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?
What do you mean by that?
Do they even read the Bible in church anymore? If I’m not mistaken, Jesus would have wanted you to tell your friend not to fornicate. Do you really think Jesus would support you telling your friend to just wear a rubber?
It’s a contraditory answer because the Bible, having been written by different people with different points of view, give contradictory opinions. To which scriptures of Paul do you refer?
No, I said it seems unjust, not that it is. I’m aware of the limitations of my intellect and the human intellect in general. By the way, I’ve picked up a couple e-books by Sam Harris. Do you recommend I read Lying or Letter to the Christians first?
Sure the Bible is at times contradictory but peoples fates are predestined or they aren’t. God is all sovereign or he isn’t. If everyone’s fates are predetermined and/or everything happens in accordance with your god’s will, then there is no room for free will.
Relevant Bible verses are:
Romans 8: 29-30
Romans 9:13-21
Ephesians 1: 4-5
Ephesians 1:11
A quick google search makes me think that as a Presbyterian you should be favoring predestination over free will.
However as a “liberal” interpretor of the Bible I imagine implications regarding predestination will cause you to waffle on the subject.
Do you make it a habit of following beings and causes that according to your reasoning just “seem” unjust to you?
Both books are good. Probably a letter to a Christian nation is more relevant to the topic, but it’s been years since I read it. However from an atheists perspective, nothing beats reading the Bible from cover to cover. It’s pretty crazy.
I’ve had what I thought at the time was a divine experience or two. The one I remember the clearest was:
I was at a Hindu camp, a camp for Satya Sai Baba. We were meditating. I clearly remember being in the most pure meditation I have ever been in - that is, I was totally looking inwards. And I had a vision.
Inside my heart? soul? I saw a small black pearl. As I watched, this black pearl slowly changed to white, a gleaming, bright white light, and raised up, being nestled inside a lotus flower. This light filled my entire soul.
At the time I took this to be a sign that God was with me. Now I know it was just a product of meditation.
On the other hand, I spent many years as a teenager praying for a sign, wanting to believe, hoping God would give me a sign. Nothing came, nothing concrete, and belief just…faded away.
I make it a habit of thinking things through, studying the relevant available information, searching out opinions on all sides of an issue and then deciding what, if any, conclusion can be drawn. To your original question, which is, basically: if God isn’t good, why should we worship him? The answer is, We are not in a position to judge God.
Yes, Presbyterians have had a long tradition with predestination. Most Presbyterians I know don’t think it’s a major issue anymore. We’re much more interested in social ministries that provide help and education: food pantries, clothing distribution, educational grants, help with paying for medicine, free legal clinics, distribution of Bibles, etc.
I will check my resources on those scriptures and return to this when I’ve got something to contribute.
If all this is for our benefit(as the Bible puts forth), then we are the only ones that can, and should, judge God. If someone makes a pie for me, I get to judge its worth. If someone builds a house for me, I have the right to examine it for structural integrity. If someone creates an entire universe for my benefit, I’m going to give a good look-see.
It’s important to keep in mind what “brushes with the divine” does and what it doesn’t.
I’m not a believer, but even so - a “brush with the divine” is by definition a direct contact or experience (in one’s mind, at least). It gives no special insight into the intellectual workings of a faith or theology - what I would call the ‘cultural context’. A person with a “brush with the divine” isn’t really in a better position to comment on that, than someone who hasn’t had one.
This assumes we are peers of God. I don’t know anybody else who can create a physical universe.
I can’t build a house-does this mean I can’t complain about one that is built for me?
It seems to me that you thought things through and according to your reasoning you concluded God at least appears to be unjust/not good, but then recoil to your own ignorance.
My guess is you got this idea that you are not in the position to judge God from the Bible, the very Bible that you, as a liberal Christian, agree is written not by God but by fallible people and is filled with many errors. So I don’t see why you have to appeal to ignorance in this case except that appeals to reason led to conclusions that weren’t to your liking.
You can learn how to build a house. Given that instruction, time and materials, you could build a house. This puts you, cosmologically, on the same level as someone who already has that knowledge. Creating the universe is a different scale completely.
That sounds reasonable giving the premise of predestination. Your church probably thinks most of those miscreants are doomed to hell, and there is nothing you or they can do to prevent it. So you might as well help make them comfortable for the short time they are here on earth, before your God can punish them just as He intends and has foreseen.