Buddhism and Loneliness

[Machinaforce]

@Knowed_Out

Another thing OP: What you’re doing is using Buddhism like Web MD. You’re searching through databases and collecting text. That won’t work. It’s like thinking you can do home repair by watching the YouTube. You have to actually have some experience doing home repair first.

You should actually go to a service and experience it as a culture. You’ll get more of an understanding on how practitioners make Buddhism part of their lives, and how they see forsaking of material goods as relieving themselves of burden. Plus, you’ll be with other people. That’s the result of overcoming loneliness in the first place.

Except they were wrong. I sat in on one and the relieving of material goods is not relieving myself of burden but essentially casting out stuff that has meaning too me. I’m sorry they view such things as burdens, but they were never that to me. As a culture it looks to me that if your experience doesn’t match theirs then you are deluding yourself or you just don’t get it.

All my current issues stem from when I first read about Buddhism, and I never really recovered from it. I want to ignore it, but I just find it hard to argue against what they say. It’s like everything I do is “Wrong” and if I want to be “right” I have to follow them. It sounds like other religions to me.

[Machinaforce]

Especially that part about the “myth of freedom”, reminds me of the free will debate.

[Machinaforce]

Which I think he means that there is no point in chasing desires since achieving them won’t make you happy and you’ll feel like crap if you don’t ever get to reach them. Depressing really.

[Isosleepy]

I think you need to get your hands on a Nintendo DS, play some Mario Kart, get your head outta this stuff. Do that for 21 days. Unless, again, you like being miserable, and don’t want to give that up. In which case, I strongly suggest you never light up a cigarette.

[Knowed_Out]

@Machinaforce

I did once, years ago. It was about the same as what I am saying now. I think Buddhism puts in reincarnation so that people don’t take suicide as the logical step to their depression premises.

I don’t think Buddhism knows the conclusion of what it is saying, I still don’t know how they get love and compassion but that is another matter. Mostly what they say is that my life is a lie.

You went to an actual temple, got barefoot, attended a service, hated it, and STILL research it?

OK, it’s obvious you just want to bitch. End result, you’re still lonely.

[Machinaforce]

@Isosleepy

I think you need to get your hands on a Nintendo DS, play some Mario Kart, get your head outta this stuff. Do that for 21 days. Unless, again, you like being miserable, and don’t want to give that up. In which case, I strongly suggest you never light up a cigarette.

The thing is that I tried to do that and it just triggers this stuff again.

[Machinaforce]

@Knowed_Out

You went to an actual temple, got barefoot, attended a service, hated it, and STILL research it?

OK, it’s obvious you just want to bitch. End result, you’re still lonely.

Not really hated but more like it was just that if you didn’t have the same reaction then you don’t get it. It’s like other practices I did in the past that yielded nothing and the blame was put on me.

But the ideas and what they say still sticks to me because I don’t know what to say about it. Like the “myth of freedom”. I try to carry on and leave them behind, but they still haunt me.

[lingyi]

The OP loves wallowing in self-pity and Buddhism fills that need handily. It’s not you that’s messed up (BTW, it IS YOU that’s messed up), but the world!

[begbert2]

@Machinaforce

Especially that part about the “myth of freedom”, reminds me of the free will debate.

I love a good free will discussion, but I’m not sure you’d like what I have to say about it. As a compatiblist, what I say we have, you probably wouldn’t call free will, and me discussing it would probably just make you even more depressed!

[Steken]

Try Brazilian jiu jitsu, Machinaforce.

Google BJJ academies in your area, pick whichever has the best reputation, and sign up for a (usually totally free!) first week of classes.

Yes, yes, yes, this is wildly off-topic - but that’s the point. I think you need something else than (your idea of) Buddhism to occupy your mind for a little while. BJJ will do that.

[Machinaforce]

@Steken

Try Brazilian jiu jitsu, Machinaforce.

Google BJJ academies in your area, pick whichever has the best reputation, and sign up for a (usually totally free!) first week of classes.

Yes, yes, yes, this is wildly off-topic - but that’s the point. I think you need something else than (your idea of) Buddhism to occupy your mind for a little while. BJJ will do that.

It wouldn’t. If video games don’t do it then nothing will. It’s pretty damn hard to shake their claim that the world is an illusion.

[begbert2]

@Machinaforce

It wouldn’t. If video games don’t do it then nothing will. It’s pretty damn hard to shake their claim that the world is an illusion.

I dunno, man, it’s jiu jitsu. Enough shots to the head and you won’t worry about anything.

[Machinaforce]

Trust me when I say I have done everything to forget.

But hearing them say the world is an illusion and to not treat it as real makes me feel like anything that I do is worthless and pointless.

Calling the body “foam on a wave, a shadow of a shadow” also doesn’t help either.

[susan]

I mean this gently, but you sound less like a person with a Buddhism problem and more like a person who struggles with obsessions.

[Telemark]

@susan

I mean this gently, but you sound less like a person with a Buddhism problem and more like a person who struggles with obsessions.

This has been pointed out to him in at least a dozen other threads.

[Steken]

@Machinaforce

It wouldn’t.

And you know this how?

@Machinaforce

If video games don’t do it then nothing will.

There are, uh, some pretty major differences between video games and jiu jitsu. Unlike the former, the latter involves strenuous physical activity, which - long story short - tends to make people feel good. You’ll also be meeting people, which can also feel good. What’s more, you’ll be touching people (and people will be touching you), which also tends to make folks feel good.

@begbert2

I dunno, man, it’s jiu jitsu. Enough shots to the head and you won’t worry about anything.

I know you’re kidding but just to be clear - there’s no striking in jiu jitsu, only grappling. “Weaponized hugging.” So, no risk of brain damage! That’s good, right, Machinaforce?

[Machinaforce]

@Steken

And you know this how?

There are, uh, some pretty major differences between video games and jiu jitsu. Unlike the former, the latter involves strenuous physical activity, which - long story short - tends to make people feel good. You’ll also be meeting people, which can also feel good. What’s more, you’ll be touching people (and people will be touching you), which also tends to make folks feel good.

I know you’re kidding but just to be clear - there’s no striking in jiu jitsu, only grappling. “Weaponized hugging.” So, no risk of brain damage! That’s good, right, Machinaforce?

I don’t think you understand that nothing makes this go away because I don’t have an answer that proves it wrong so it sticks in my mind. The world is an illusion, the body is an illusion, that what you feel from art is just your imagination and not really a connection with what is in the work. It’s saying that my life is a lie, nothing makes me forget that.

[elbows]

So, if nothing will change any of this, what is it you’re hoping to gain from repeatedly telling us about how this tortures you?

You shoot down every suggestion, every attempt to help, and any well proven actions that might ease your misery. You’re not really interested in learning the *actual * concepts, only your specific and unrelated personal interpretation. You’re not interested in participating in a community or having a teacher, the two cornerstones of actual Buddhist instruction/transmission!

What is it you’re looking for from us?

(The one thing that shines through, it seems to me anyway, is that you ARE, ironically, living in a hell you’ve created with your mind. )

[begbert2]

@Machinaforce

I don’t think you understand that nothing makes this go away because I don’t have an answer that proves it wrong so it sticks in my mind. The world is an illusion, the body is an illusion, that what you feel from art is just your imagination and not really a connection with what is in the work. It’s saying that my life is a lie, nothing makes me forget that.

I personally can think of a couple of possible ways reality being an illusion could be a problem: ‘if reality is an illusion it has no value,’ and ‘if reality is an illusion it could vanish at any time’. And neither of these criticisms stands up to scrutiny: value exists in the eye of the beholder, and you clearly value observed reality; and reality’s persistence has precedent, and even if reality is real its endurance isn’t ensured anyway, so there’s no difference there anyway.

Honestly, my real reaction to “life is an illusion” is less “no it isn’t” and more “so what if it is?”.

[Machinaforce]

@elbows

So, if nothing will change any of this, what is it you’re hoping to gain from repeatedly telling us about how this tortures you?

You shoot down every suggestion, every attempt to help, and any well proven actions that might ease your misery. You’re not really interested in learning the *actual * concepts, only your specific and unrelated personal interpretation. You’re not interested in participating in a community or having a teacher, the two cornerstones of actual Buddhist instruction/transmission!

What is it you’re looking for from us?

(The one thing that shines through, it seems to me anyway, is that you ARE, ironically, living in a hell you’ve created with your mind. )

Because so far the “proven” actions you speak of don’t work because they all end up triggering this stuff again. Now art and music don’t provide help since the feeling I get from them is fabricated, I am not connection to anything outside of me just making things up in my mind.

I told you that I cannot find a solution to the stuff because I can’t prove it wrong, which is the way that would help me out. But I can’t find a solution to it, especially when their responses seem so well thought out like:

"However, this is still something important to consider. Buddhism is very much so a religion, rather than a simple philosophy. There are many great secular purposes that can be derived from buddhism- Psychology for example has recently found a ton of copacetic values within much of buddhist practise, or is arriving at what buddhism has been doing for centuries. Still, buddhism requires a good bit of practise and study, and it is more than a philosophy because it fulfills a spiritual role, soteriology and supernatural concepts aside buddhism is a praxis by which we arrive at abnegation of ego-differentiated self. It is a vehicle for mystic experiences as any long-term buddhist practioner will assure you. The great trouble here is what has been the biggest weakness of buddhism- It is a monastic faith at it’s heart. This means that among the laity a sort of “low” religion has emerged- You do things that make a good buddhist just because that’s what you do. You give food to monks and lamas, you say a few prayers, and that’s that. But these trappings and material clingings all have a purpose as a means of engaging the mind in certain activities. Take the tibetan prayer wheel for instance: On the surface you turn it and that gives you good merit, which means a better birth. But deeper than that, the wheel is a praxis by which you engage in the mental experience of having prayed without the activity of prayer, it is useful for not only illustrating the divide between participation and agency, but as well encourages that ego-death state by means of a tacit participation in compassion practise.

The faith is built entirely around the idea that all that we percieve, and experience is mediated, often greatly, by language and learned or assumed concepts that have become a deep part of out intellectual processes: Cognition and Emotion. The mystic attainment in buddhism is that which allows one to enter a psychological state of consciousness capable of affording participation in an unmediated world. The mediated world, it is argued, leads to cognitive and emotive processes that are not ultimately desireable reactions to the stimuli of the world. The question of these religious trappings in relation to attaining this psychological ego-death is that many of means we might use to reach this unmediated state are forms and methods that are themselves mediators of the world. The low religious, or lay, application of this high religious pursuit becomes the application of those means which are ding-fur-sich: sometimes linguistic means like koan, sometimes cognitive ablations like mantra recitation, sometimes tactile methods of conditioning such as mala. It is generally acknowledge that the most efficient vehicle for attaining this kind of ego-death in any permanence is still that of meditation- the conditioning of the mind to guide it towards conditioning ego-death as a default measure to ensure a finality in the assumption of that mental-psychological state. However those means which function as ding-fur-sich do so and are done with the understanding that their practise and encouragement conditions the end-goal of nonmediated participation. Often buddhism avoids this kind of deep analytical discourse because it is not usually itself one of those means which encourages those conditions, being a linguistic and conceptual construction of dialectic that is reliant upon the assumption of those learned concepts that lead to mediated, rather than unmediated, participation. The dialectic becomes that which reifies mediative-mind."