Buffy 05/11/02 spoilers

Cafe Society
81

Actually, stealing is something that ordinarily would utterly repel Anya. She has complete faith in capitalism and the American Way, and stealing undermines those things. Remember her when she discovered that Dawn had shoplifted from the Magic Box - that was only partly a reaction to the personal betrayal.

As for the shift from comedy to drama with Dawn on the tracks, I thought that worked well. That was the impetus for Buffy’s realizing that she was acting nuts and she was probably under a spell, which pulled them out of the slapstick so the episode could end on a somewhat sober note.

82

I was actually bothered that Spike wasn’t there for the Burning of the Jacket. I mean, he was the one that figured out that it was the jacket that was causing all the problems, he helped Xander nab the jacket…

I thought he didn’t get enough screen time in S6, and he doesn’t seem to be getting much this season, except for in “Beneath You”.

You’d think that after going to all the trouble of getting his soul back, ME would make it more of a major theme in this season’s story arc. “Him” was the first episode where anybody besides Buffy and Spike even mentioned it. Instead, he’s The Thing In The Basement (Well, now Xander’s Closet, now there’s an opportunity for some major jokes), that gets to come out only when some muscle is needed.

Oh, and pepperlandgirl

[spoiler] Worried as I am about the Peroxided One, I’m still holding onto hope that everything will turn out alright. I mean, I’m the one who predicted during Summer hiatus that Spike would be the LB for this season, but would ultimately be redeemed, and I still believe that. And I think TETD is still playing with him, and some of the spoilers I’ve seen back this up. I think now that Spike is living with Xander, and therefore being somewhat supervised, it will become apparent that while lucid, he isn’t really in control of all his faculties because of the delusions and hallucinations that TETD is feeding him. Also, I don’t think TETD is able to influence only Spike. It’s just that since we know Spike hasn’t got all his marbles, it’s more obvious in his case. I think it can appear to anyone, in any form it desires (or perceives that the appear-ee wants to see). It’s power center is in the SHS basement, and is strongest there, but it’s not confined to that place. Moving Spike out of the basement is kind of like moving into a gated community- it gives a false sense of security. Also, one of the spoilers I saw says that when Spike bites a girl, he doesn’t seem to suffer any chip-induced pain, and it’s obvious that the chip is still there and functioning. So, if we see Spike biting someone and not feeling pain, that’s kind of a giveaway that things in the Buffyverse are not what they seem. And if TETD has Big Plans for Spike, it would hopefully have sense enough to know that having him eating people again would be a good way to get him staked, and a Big Pile of Dust wouldn’t be a very effective instrument. My guess would be that TETD is going to be trying to make sure that nobody with any kind of power that could threaten it can trust what they’re seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, or feeling, thus undermining their confidence in themselves and making them a much less effective fighting force.

Also, Spike has come so far over the last three seasons, TPB at ME wouldn’t have him go back to being evil now that he has a soul. I mean, Joss wouldn’t do that to us.

Would he? [/spoiler]

83

Thea Logica wrote: Would he?

That’s exactly what he would. And has done, time and time again over the years. I don’t think it will happen, though. But JW can certainly give us some nasty surprises.

I’m still not cartain where this season is going. But then again, S4, didn’t get going untill episode 8, the same with S5 and well… S6 I guess its either ep6 (Once more with feeling) where the gang finds out about Buffy being in heaven or ep7 (Tabula Rasa) where Tara breaks up with Willow.

I have faith in Joss. Whetever will happen, it’s gonna be fun.

84

A question for pepperlandgirl and others who are discussing the “bite” spoiler.

Is the spoiler scene which you’ve seen or read about clearly in the Present? Is it possible it was a flash-back?

85

First- pepperlandgirl, I hope you don’t think I was being snippy- I just have decided to avoid Buffy spoilers as I have found the episodes to be more enjoyable without spoilage-- I tend to get the full Joss effect that way. I did not intend to cause a ruckus- I know how easy it is to post something up fast and forget the box. The numerous typos in my posts will certainly attest to that.

Second- are the previews done by UPN and not Joss? I think this is what was posted before when complaints about misleading previews were discussed- so, in a way, more information then was intented by the producers may be revealed by the previews/teasers.

Third- I think this might be like unwrapping your presents early, tempting, but it ruins the fun of the “big event”. Having been a spoiler person myself before, I kind of like it this way better.

Fourth- thanks to everyone for being so cool about using the spoiler feature.

:slight_smile:

86

elf6c, pepperlandgirl and I didn’t mean to spoil any episodes for you. There’s something in the nature of a spoiler whore that must know what’s going to happen next, and having advance info doesn’t “spoil” the show for us at all. We try not to be too revealing because we know that there are those who want to be surprised, but sometimes we accidentally let something slip.

Now, Homebrew

I’ve just found some pretty detailed “bite” related spoilers, from a source that’s considered to be fairly reliable, and yes, the scenes of Spike snacking on people are in the present, not flashbacks or dream sequences, but Spike is not acting of his own free will.

pepperlandgirl, check your e-mail.

87

Thea, Homebrew

It’s not the “manipulated into biting people” storyline thta gets me. It’s the “brutal 3rd degree” after they find out he was possessed/manipulated by Morphy.

88

No problem- I was just posting a gentle reminder. Sounds like next week is going to be quite interesting, if the volume of black boxes is any indicator.

Happy spoilage!! :slight_smile:

89

The reason that I took my tack is because I love BtVS continuity debates. Debating such minutiae, IMO, debases the whole concept.
On two grounds. First, as you noted, there is self-evidently no continuity problem. It has been established the Sunnydale has a military base where, among other things, rocket launchers are stored. It has also been established that the Slayer can break into places and take stuff - including heavily guarded military bases.
Action taking place off stage does not a continuity problem make.

Second, accusing the writers of “sloppy writing” because they didn’t spell out each step involved attempts to deny the writers the ability to have fun. It’s fiction; it’s made to entertain us. So long as they don’t damage the characters, the story or the backplot, the writers have committed no crime when things don’t mesh precisely - indeed, they have given us a bit of fun in continuity debates.
Were the writers to accept the piddling demand that every detail must be precise or the writing be deemed “sloppy,” the show would probably suck.

Sua

90

Ok, I have come up with the following scenero that will make it all make sense and I’ll be happy.

They DON’T know that Spike is under Morphy’s influence, and so try to beat the info out of him. (Buffy has already established in ep 8 that she can’t kill him…) Spike doesn’t talk because he doesn’t have any information to give. He doesn’t know what the fuck is going on. So, he runs away. The Scoobies go out and look for him, because for all they know, he is still eating people. Instead they run into Andrew (who is supposedly dressed like Spike. That’s going to kill me…) They question him and find out about Morphy. Buffy puts the pieces together and realize they just beat up an innocent person (heh). There is a total “Oh My God, what have we done?” moment. Spike is suicidal because he feels horrible, physically, mentally, and emotionally, and decides that he’s better off dead—it’ll be better for everybody. But the SG don’t want him to die! Because they need him! (For muscle and his bloodhound abilities. sigh I know they’re going to save him, but I’m not holding out any hope that they will actually treat him with respect.) If anything in Ep 10 they’ll stick him in his closet and admonish him not to come out.
Ok, some of my bitterness is coming out, but I’m being realistic here.

91

It’s not supposed to mesh well! First you see Buffy getting all hard-assed to kill the principal. Funny! Then, Willow getting ready to turn R.J. into a girl. Funny! Then, Anya preparing to rob a bank. Funny! Then, you’re thinking, gee, ha ha, what funny thing is Dawn gonna do? And she goes and tried to kill herself. Oh fuck!

It’s not supposed to be funny – it’s supposed to be scary. And the reason it works so well is because the audience is being led down one path and then hit with something else it totally doesn’t expect. Several of you have said you don’t like it – you didn’t like it because it made you feel awful. But that was the goal – that’s just plain good television.

–Cliffy

92

Behold, the spoiler playground!

93

Just so you know, I will continue to bitch about the lack of Clem until he either appears, or the show is cancelled, whichever comes first.

Dammit, let’s have some Clemmage!!!

94

I feel obliged to respond, since at this point I’ve been called not only dim-witted (or at best, passive), but jerkish. I think it was abundantly clear that my earlier post wasn’t to be taken seriously. My point was “it was a joke, don’t sweat it.” And to take offense at that is, IMO, the very definition of “humorless.”

I’m all for picking apart movies and books and TV shows, or else I wouldn’t be on this board in the first place. But it’s entirely possible to take it too far, finding meaning in stuff that just isn’t there, or worse, missing the point of something entirely. And that goes double when it comes to criticism – I often hear accusations of “sloppy writing” flying around, when in fact I think the writers were just going for something else entirely, not being sloppy. To over-analyze a throwaway joke to the point where you’ve sucked the humor out of it isn’t intellectual; it’s just the opposite.

95

“No one expects the Spanish Inquisition… God, it’s like I have some kind of disease!”
and
“That’s what I used to call him in my head before I knew his name!”
were my favorite bits, I think.

I dunno, I thought Flashback Whiney Dawn was trying to be played for laughs in things like the scene in the bathroom and, well, at times it worked. However, a lot of times it didn’t, and the humor really picked up toward the end of the episode with the contest. The laying-on-the-tracks thing, though, was just… Morbid. Okay, okay, okay, I admit it, I laughed at that part, too…

It seems to me that the bits in the first three seasons where Buffy, Willow, or Xander were painfully uncomfortable were somehow… Lighter. Or funnier. Yeah, there was the shameful embarassment thing, but they included more outright jokes about it. This week’s episode just had the painful dark humor that they have used a lot in recent seasons.

And, er, uhm, when does Michelle Trachtenberg turn eighteen again?

96

I guess I’m the lone voice of dissent because I thought this episode was embarrassing. The plot was recycled and the characters were downright dull. I cringed to see that the Scoobies have resorted to hanging out in a bar that high schoolers frequent.

Dawn needs to get some friends of her own. Xander, Buffy, and Willow are adults. They need a life outside of each other.

I’ve been watching Season 1 and 2 on DVD and the show then was so much fresher and had so much more charm and wit. I completely understand that it is next to impossible to come up with new, fresh material for 24 episodes each season. Frankly, I’m impressed that they were able to do it for so long. Buffy is one of the best t.v. shows ever, IMO.

But, aside from a few funny moments (e.g. the rocket launcher), when the 5 Nov show was over I thought to myself: “It’s official. Buffy’s jumped the shark.”

:frowning:

97

OK, first, it’s been fairly well established that The Bronze is the only cool place in town to hang out, so who cares if the gang hangs out there and high school kids hang out there too? Second, we’ve seen Buffy, Willow and Xander attempt to establish relationships outside their core group and they just aren’t very good at it. I for one wouldn’t be interested in seeing much of their lives outside of the Scooby context anyway. See the excitement of Xander directing a construction crew! Gasp in awe as Willow crams for a make up test! Yawn. Finally, isn’t it a bit harsh on the basis of one ep you didn’t particularly care for to dismiss the entire series?

98

I’m going to reserve judgement on whether the show has jumped the shark until the end of the season. I thought the 11/5 episode was hilarious. I was afraid that it would be “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” all over agiain, but it worked quite well for me seeing it from the “spellees” point of view. “B, B & B” was the only really good Xander-centric episode I’ve ever seen- “The Zeppo” and “The Replacement” were really only so-so. I was actually kind of hoping that, while they were searching for the source of R.J.'s power over women, then subsequently for the jacket, Xander would tell Spike about Drusilla rescuing him from Angel and trying to sire him as a vampire. But, then, Xander still hates Spike, and the jury is still out on whether Spike’s attitude toward Xander has changed.

“Him” definitely isn’t the best ep so far this season, but so far we’ve had three great episodes (“Beneath You”, “Same Time, Same Place”, “Selfless”), two pretty good ones (“Lessons”, “Him”) and one clunker (“Help”). Not bad for a show that’s in it’s seventh season, where writers are having to revisit old themes and try to put a fresh spin on them. I mean, there are only so many basic plotlines to work with.

99

Well, that’s kind of my point. When you’re 17 and hanging around with your buds at a bar, it’s cute and charming. When you’re 27 and hanging around with the same buds at the same bar, it’s kind of pathetic.

On the contrary, I complimented the series as a whole. I just think that the characters have been developed as much as they can be developed given the context of the show and it’s beginning to lose its creative edge.

100

I will say this until I’m blue in the face, but they are doing it on purpose! The first time we saw these themes it was through the eyes of high schoolers and everything was black and white. Now when we see the themes, we are seeing them through the eyes of adults (well, in age, anyway) and things aren’t so black and white—things are a lot grayer and the world’s a dark and cruel place.