Oh my God.
What two amazingly harsh and surprising episodes. I couldn’t believe it. Josh Wedon is G-d. Not only are these shows deep and well-put-together, they are more than willing to run risks.
And I gotta tell you, I was in tears by the end of Xander’s speech to Anya at the end. (Course, it could have been the w–d.)
Sua
Actually, Sua, it’s Joss Whedon, and yes, I am amazed.
I dunno, though. I thought the ending of Buffy was kind of lame. She only just missed him leaving? That was kind of milking it. And if it had been me, I’d have kicked Riley’s butt to the curb for paying a vamp to suck him (ow! Stop beating me over the head with the sexual implications, Joss!), but that’s just me. The Xander speech made me sigh with wistfulness. Xander should be cloned and handed out like Halloween candy.
The ending of Angel was hair-raising to say the least. Who’s willing to bet that:
a) Whasisname, the pretty boy lawyer, makes it out in one piece and take Holland’s place
OR
b) Holland had it all planned, and Darla didn’t really kill him (or did, but turned him into a vamp). I just don’t see him not taking the behavior of those two into account.
I’m thinking this is all heading towards a big crossover eisode myself.
I’m just hoping this means we’ve really seen the last of Riley. And Anya is looking mighty hot these days. I taped only Buffy. But seeing the ads, wished I had taped Angel as well.
I thought this was one of the few times when Angel was better than Buffy (but I have weird taste). Generally, I don’t like the episodes where the writers have to reach a specific ending. “We need to get rid of Riley, so let’s write an episode about that.” Better to let the story develop on it’s own. I would have been much happier with a vamped Riley.
Angel was really good though. Love Drusila.
My 2 cents.
I had that thought at the time, but then, as I watched Buffy run, I had no idea at all whether she was going to make it in time. This is because Joss’ (thanks, BTW ;)) sense of humor is so warped that you don’t know how he’s going to play anything. So, in a sense, he breathed a bit of life in the old cliche.
As for Angel, a third possibility - the pretty-boy lawyer becomes a vamp?
Sua
SuaSponte, I love you! I was gonna start a “Please. God. Let this be the last of Bland Military Boy” thread, but I wanted to wait so I’d have something to talk about with Dinsdale today. 
I loved both episodes. I’m sure someone from Wolfram & Hart makes it out either alive or vamped, and my money is on Lindsay - they’ve spent far too much time on his character to waste him now! He’ll take Angel’s place as their boy-toy. I love Drusilla, nice to see her around again.
Please, oh please, let this be the last of Riley. I thought the best scene in Buffy is where she and Xander have a little talk where they basically admit that they take their SOs for granted. Did I mention that I really don’t enjoy the character of Riley?
Yay. We’re geeks.
I can’t comment on the Buffy episode because the episodes in Canada run one week behind the US. You have me curious about it. By the sounds of it, we must be on the same schedule for Angel though.
The Angel episode just killed me! When the end credits came up on the screen, I felt like screaming. I couldn’t believe that they’re letting me wonder for the next week about whats going to happen. I don’t get worked up about many shows, but I make an exception for Angel. Is Lindsay going to be a vampire? Are they going to let him go? Is he going to hang out with Darla and Dru? I think the rest of the room winds up being lunch. What are they going to do about Cordelia and Wesley and whatshisname? On a slightly less important note, is that guy who was trying to kill himself going to figure in later episodes? Joss is big on foreshadowing, and there must have been a good reason that Cordelia got that vision about him.
If next week is a rerun, I’m not going to be happy.
I loved both episodes, but Captain White Bread had to go. Anybody who complains that Buffy doesn’t really love him is too dense to be allowed to live. On second thought, making him a vampire would’ve been really good too.
As for Angel, I want to know what the really top level senior partners at W&H are going to do now. Holland was head of special projects, but what other top dogs are there, and how will they react? Or are they really so evil that they’re willing to sacrifice Holland, Lindsey, Lilah and the others at the party to make Angel ‘dark’ again? I don’t know, but Angel’s decision to let the massacre proceed, and then to fire Cordy, Wesley and Gunn, was a great twist ending.
A few notes:
I doubt Holland had it all planned. Intelligence is no defense against the belief that one is invulnerable - in fact, it usually serves as an amplifier. Hollad was trapped by his own hubris, something which fits very well with The Joss’s sense of morality. Holland is dead, along with everyone else in the room, except for…
…Lindsey, who has clearly gone over the edge. Just look at his eyes, his reactions:
Darla: You don’t care that I’m about to kill you?
Lindsey: Oh, I care. I just don’t mind.
That’s one man who has caught the night train to Wackoland, and I say - more power to him! He’ll make a great vampire, and a great Darla love-toy.
Comments?
Let me join the “Good Riddance to Riley” chorus. Boy, did I hate that Need Sponge of a character. I hated every minute he was on screen, for the particular reason that I think every second of “Buffy’s Romance” subplots detract from the drama, charm and action of the show. I thought it about the Buffy/Angel relationship, and thought it about Riley, too. And it really takes a lot of gall, character-wise, for him to criticize Buffy for her emotional availability when he slept with Faith in Buffy’s body and didn’t even realize it. Loser.
I think the show is also making the mistake it did last season, of introducing a Big Villain, then promptly dropping the plotline for several episodes. Adam wasn’t that great anyway, and the whole story dwindled to a halt. This season, Glory is supposed to be nigh unto the Antichrist–can we maybe pay attention to that plot? Giles was absolutely right about her misplaced priorities. So much for wanting him to be her Watcher again.
Angel, though, I just want to say (and Peta can vouch for me), that seconds before he said the line, “You’re all fired,” I said, “OK, you’re all fired.” From a writer’s standpoint, that was the only line that was possible, and I loved it!
There are some interesting things going on on that show. Angel cannot, of course, lose his soul and become fully demon again unless he experiences a moment of true happiness (and the show has played loosely with what that means). But he can make the moral choice to abandon his mission and become actively evil if he wants to, and that’s what he’s struggling with. He made the moral decision to allow Darla and Dru to do his dirty work, as it were; I expect that the law of unintended consequences is about to explode in his face, though.
I, too, smell a crossover. Dru in L.A.? Buffy with relationship troubles? Spike in love with Buffy? Angel going “off-mission”? I screams crossover, which is not necessarily a good thing.
Thoughts on Angel…I am reminded of the interview piece Joss has on the VHS version of Becoming Pt 2 (when Buffy must send a restored Angel to Hell at the climax). In brief he says that he decided that he wanted to pull away all of Buffy’s support structure to make her truly self-reliant. I suspect he’s doing the same with Angel. If he’s going to regain focus and perspective in regards to just what the Powers-the-Be want him to do, no one can do it for him, its gotta be all him.
Cordy, Wes and Gunn have been and are trying to be his conscious, and he’s got a friggin soul for that–plus, for friends, they’re being awfully judgemental. I mean, it was getting to be like a daily intervention with those three. I suspect the writers need them to regain some perspective too and recognize Angel is a leader again.
Regarding Buffy…I don’t know that Joss isn’t pulling something similar with Buffy. Perhaps the character was becoming too fragmented in her commitments. She was trying to become recommitted to slaying and her watcher while being committed to her relationship with Riley and failing a little at both. I don’t think she was wrong to be angry with Riley (it was akin to finding out your lover is shooting drugs with a prostitute IMHO) or that she was to blame for his (you should pardon the borrowing of a term from recent headlines) disenfranchisement.
Riley, who seemed to have lost his place in the world after the dismantling of the Initiative, had definitely become needy or displaced from Buffy because IMHO he was displaced from himself and never allowed himself time or energy to adjust to such a massive life change. Instead, he threw himself into Buffy and her mission and when she couldn’t make him her whole life the way he’d made her his (lots of pronouns), he was, of course, disappointed.
Taking the whole–should Buffy and Riley be together question out of the equation for now with the newly re-upped Soldier Boy off–I think its at least logical and necessary for each of them to be taken away from each other to refocus their energy and evaluate and re-form their goals and personhoods (a word?).
A Crossover: I wouldn’t be surprised and I wouldn’t mind seeing Buffy and Angel working together and helping each other through this rough time so long as the writers don’t go soft and sappy and try to rekindle a relationship. I think they could do it as friends and still have it work effectively with just undertones of their feelings without throwing them into a romantic situation again.
As far as Xander, despite PLD’s comment during the show about Xander’s being loyal to buffy, I think he’s been a pretty big pr!ck a lot of the time. He’s always great at giving Buffy advice about her love life when he has no business doing so. And he’s great at telling her what guys to see and not see when he’s not mooning over her. Let’s not forget who didn’t tell Buffy that Willow was trying to restore Angel’s soul in Becoming (pt 2) and who encouraged Faith to go after Angel when he returned from Hell.
Personally, I think he was out of line and that it was a mistake to make her feel guilty about her behavior. (Since when did Xander get so mature and/or have the right to call anyone on their behavior; also, Buffy is right and Xander obviously knew it given his actions–he was taking Anya for granted and making jokes at her expense.)
I think it would’ve been a better moment and a good means to reestablish Giles as her watcher and father-figure if he’d confronted Buffy. Had him talk to her and rather than laying on guilt with accusations of “taking Riley for granted” the same end (Buffy going after him) could have been achieved by helping her realize that it wasn’t who was more right or more wrong, but about (1) does she love him and want to keep him in her life and (2) is she willing to tell him that.
I also wouldn’t have sent Buffy running after him (great secret commandos if we know where their helicopters land!). I would have allowed her to sit and really think over the question.
Of course, its always a lot easier to write changes to something you’ve already seen playout–its a lot harder to write them before you see them acted.
My six-cents worth (not to be confused with sixth-sense)!
(Hope it all made regular sense…)
For the record, it’s going to be quite some time until a new episode. Sometime in mid-January, I believe. Grumble.
I really, really didn’t like Into the Woods. I thought it’s emotional manipulation was base and the writing wooden at places. It’s the worst of this season in my mind. Some good points, but…
The fangirl in me is wondering if Amber Benson (Tara) will replace Marc’s spot in the credits… I would like that.
Angel was excellent. One of the best of all time. Quietgirl and I couldn’t stop yelling “Who’s your grandmummy” at each other for awhile… hee! Drusilla and Darla… loved the subtle as a brick subtext moments. Mmm.
Honestly, I think they’d leave Lindsay as a human to make him suffer. Lilah I can see as a vamp.
Peta, I’m glad I saw the one I saw rather than the one you saw. 
Mine didn’t have any “displacement”, “disenfranchisment” or “personhoods”, and I think I enjoyed it a lot more.
I’ve got to disagree with you about Xander. His character has really grown, and though he seems flippant, he does care, deeply. Which is what his scene with Buffy and then later with Anya was all about. Or maybe I just identify too much with him.
Yea!, Riley’s gone.
I always figured he’d die sacrifically saving Angel. Realizing Buffy didn’t love him, but loved Angel, and Angel loved her, he dies to save the person she loves.
But gone is gone. I suspect this is a hiatus and he’ll be back, but at least we won’t have to listen to him whine for a couple of episodes.
Angel was great! I always kind of liked Lindsey, especially the ambigous nature of his character. Making him a vamp would kind of end that.
I hate Riley.
Buffy and Angel forever!
My predictions:
Those two episodes just ripped me apart (emotionally). Granted, I didn’t really like Riley’s character that much either. But Riley and Buffy must be feeling terrible…well, worse than that. Both of them made mistakes, and now they’re paying for them. Lindsay gets more and more interesting with every episode. I’m going to suffer until I see more new episodes…