Moderator Note
This isn’t the Pit. Obviously you have strong feelings about this, but you can make your point without including “Fuck you” in your post. If you feel that you need to say it, take it to the Pit.
In fact, in the second link provided (by you, IIRC), a school official expressed his beliefs that the kids involved will never be able to join an university. Which is a more drastic expectation that depriving them of prom or whatever.
Not a single person has said that. What we have said is that nobody is being bullied here. The kids engaged in an activity which possibly could lead others to bully a student, but such is always the case with any sort of free speech. And, again, these kids did not even speak; someone else took their written thoughts and published them.
It would be similar to me writing on a piece of paper, “I disapprove of President Trump and believe he is dangerous for the country” and I leave the piece of paper at home. Someone then steals the paper and tells everyone that UltraVires does not like President Trump.
Then the powers that be want to arrest me, charge me with something or ruin my social or employment life because someone else might hear that and try to harm the President. It’s absurd.
What part of this is bullying? The private thought or the writing of it? Should a student be punished if he believes another student is gay? Only if he says it? Writes it?
This anti-bullying fad has gone way too far.
Would you tolerate that malicious gossip in the workplace? If not, why should children not be afforded the same consideration with regards to their environment?
Heh.
How is it malicious to say that someone is gay? Did we go back to 1955 in a DeLorean?
But to your larger point, school is not like a workplace, it is a microcosm of society which prepares students for the real world. In that real world are assholes who will say mean things about you; in some cases these mean things are true, in some not.
How are we preparing students for the real world if they do not learn to deal with these assholes?
And that position is absolutely horrible to anyone who has ever been bullied. Your position is that they deserve literally no punishment at all!
That’s insane. Sure, we could debate what is and is not an appropriate punishment. But that is not what you are doing. You for some reason seem to think that bullies would somehow be embarrassed that their llist got out. No one cares about being caught if there is no punishment.
And, FYI, it wasn’t “suddenly a bullying list.” It was a bullying list before it was leaked. As described, it contains a their social media accounts and descriptions of how horrible they are. That’s a quick, easy list for cyberbullying. It’s stalkerish, honestly.
I believe you are the same age I am, or close to it. I can easily imagine a similar situation. Three kids make a list and pass it around, and give it to this fourth kid, who photocopies it to show some friends that they are on the list, and the list winds up being shared with everyone. I guarantee the people who made the list would get in trouble for it if the teachers figured it out.
And the real list has social media accounts. It has contact information. That’s as if the above list had phone numbers on it.
I can’t say exactly what the kids deserve for this. I don’t know the severity of the list, or anything about how these kids have behaved in the past. I can say for sure, though, that they deserve more than “no punishment” and “being embarrassed.”
[This much.
This much stupid.](https://cdn3.volusion.com/mwceg.gjtbh/v/vspfiles/photos/OfficialPortrait-2.jpg?1531400093)
Because in real life if people are harassing you at work they can be terminated. And that’s to protect adults who have adult emotional maturity. Making sure school is safe for children is not coddling. It’s what responsible adults do in order to ensure kids can learn and grow.
I have children and I wouldn’t tolerate sending them to an environment where I knew that they were being abused and couldn’t do anything about it.
I don’t disagree so long as we strictly define the terms “safe” and “abused.” I don’t agree that we should go so far as to prohibit children/people from expressing their dislike of another person.
This issue, if we punish the students, doesn’t seem to have any sort of limiting principle. Again, let’s say that I am a 12th grade student and I am in love with a girl in my class. She has made clear that she wants nothing to do with me.
Now clearly, it would be inappropriate for me to keep pressing the issue with her. But, I don’t think anyone would say that I couldn’t not go home and use her as a masturbatory aid. I don’t think that anyone would say that I couldn’t write in a diary or journal that I wish she would go out with me. But where do I cross the line from being okay to being a “bully”?
Can I tell one of my friends that I wish she would change her mind? Ten friends? Anyone who asks? Can I tell one of my friends that I fantasized about her while masturbating? Ten friends? Anyone who asks?
What if a friend steals my diary, takes a picture of the page and puts in on Facebook? My fault or his? Indeed, what if I put it on Facebook? Is a person not allowed to make a public expression of love for someone else, even if that love is unrequited?
Now, I realize that much of this certainly crosses the line from “okay” to “a real creepy bastard” but that is a subjective thing that any person is free to have an opinion about. When does it cross the line into something that the powers that be take official action against me?
<post doorhinged>
(bolding mine)
You’ve obviously put much thought into this. What do you mean by the bolded part?
typo…I meant that nobody would say that I couldn’t go home…
No. It wasn’t. Something is only “bullying” if the person targeted knows about it. And–I argue–it is only bullying if the person who said it intended for the targeted person to know about it and not if they accidentally learn about it. Bullying is about intent.
So, what does it say about the character of the students who compiled the list? Who sits down and compiles a list of potentially gay students,? What purpose does this serve?
Leaked or not, this is unacceptable behaviour and needs to be dealt with.
And some of the kids on the list are getting “Kill ur self F–” message thru burner social media accounts.
The school is festooned with positive messages but some kids have been badly hurt by this. The layers of confidentiality the school counselors and administration have to walk make me dizzy to think about it.
There is a crisis team in place and I don’t care what any hetero/ cis/ privileged people say it is warranted. It is still a tough world for
anyone “different”. Ask the people ar Pulse Nightclub. Oh wait, you can’t…
The rights to your private opinions stops where it endangers anyones safety. By making an electonically sharable document on a smart phone you are already playing fast and loose with sharability.
And I am sorry Leaffan got warned. He could have worded it better outside the pit. But his anger, I feel is justified.
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When it crosses the line from professing your love, to insults and even threats becuase it’s not returned.
“I love Heather!” : Great, even if Heather doesn’t like you.
“Heather is a **** and a **** and if I ever get her alone I’m gonna ****” : Not good.
And that is a subject thing that you can have an opinion on, and you can even share, with the worst consequence being finding out that such feelings are not shared.
Bullying is nothing like that, so your example misses the mark by a couple of galaxies.
So, you are can not be bullied by someone who has made a list of people to bully if you don’t know you are on the list? :dubious:
Their character is very poor. I do not support these students personally. However, I do not support “dealing with” people because of unpopular or childish opinions or behavior.
I know that you are personally involved with this and that certainly makes you come from a different position that me, but respectfully, this is frightening and Orwellian and will absolutely end any guarantee or semblance of free speech.
Our speech must be limited so as not to influence the single craziest person in society.
I agree that the last part of that sentence is a threat and not protected speech. But I can’t say that Heather is a fucking bitch, for example? That is actionable? Again, I’m not saying it is a good thing to do or not a shitty thing to do, but to take action against someone for saying that?
I mean, we do that kind of stuff on this very message board in the Pit.
We are adults.
But I am nor saying you can’t swing your arm. But your right stops where my face starts. And you can think whatever but what is the purpose of making a list? Even if they mean “unpopular” not “homosexual” a list like that… has some purpose. It was going somewhere, even if not intended to be shared with the world at large.
High school is not too young to learn actions have consequences. Think hateful thoughts if you must but there is no need to commit it to writing. And make it easily shareable.
TLDR: does free speech mean my kid needs to get a “F-- kill urself” message so some kid in grade 12 doesn’t feel publicly shamed?
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