Bullying/Namecalling - Unneeded abuse or rite of passage?

Great Debates
1

We’ve all heard the old adage, “What doesn’t kill you can only make you stronger.” Does it apply in cases of bullying or namecalling? That is, does mild-to-moderate verbal and physical abuse prepare one for adulthood, or is it a cruel and unneeded hindrance to the learning process?

In discussing this, should physical and verbal abuse be seperate issues? For me at least, I was physically bullied in my elementary school years (1984-89), but verbal abuse seemed to be par for the course during middle school. The physical abuse never really bothered me too much (except at the time), but three years of verbal hell left me riddled me with self-esteem issues that I carry with me even today.

Still, perhaps it has benefitted me in that I have thicker skin now. It’s hard to get me riled up. I rarely raise my voice to anyone. I haven’t thrown a punch since the eighth grade.

Was it worth it? Hell, can I even be sure that my present docility is the result of so many years of trying to ignore bullies? I don’t know. I wonder how I’d have turned out if I was one of the aggressors rather than one of the picked-on. I wonder how I’d have turned out if bullying didn’t exist.

It seems to be the natural inclination of childred to be cruel to each other. Should we discourage that attitude and punish it to the point of wiping it out, or turn a blind eye like my teachers did?

2

In the pre-teen culture of social misfits whom we all are were and in the post-teen culture of raging hormones that most of us are thankfully past(not me tho, I’m still on the fringes). There will always be such bullies and verbal abusers. I don’t think there is any way we could possibly wipe out these abuses without imposing some sort of martial law from birth.

I too was verbally abused in elementary and middle school. It has in many ways shaped my life, direct and indirect. I too think it has made be both stronger and weaker.

I think that the having to deal with these sorts of things will help us deal with life when we grow up. But there is a certain types and levels of abuses which simply should not be stood for. Physical danger? extreme mental putdowns? subjectivity abounds here for an objective answer other then complete annihlation can not be reached.

I guess I would say it’s part of both. In some ways it’s a rite of passage perhaps not to adulthood, but for wisdom. but I tend to think that it’d be better overall to reduce greatly the amount of cruelty that innately occurs when children are placed together.

3

I disagree, for the most part kids really aren’t mean to each other. Any way, pain is something that every child must learn to deal with if they want to grow up to be healthy functional adults. I’m not saying we should deliberately go out of our way to inflict pain on children but we would be doing them a disservice if we created an artifical bubble for them devoid of all pain. This means that little Johnny will have to learn to deal with losing the big game, with getting a bad grade, or sometimes what to do with mean people.

Marc

4

Don’t get me wrong - I’m not pro-bullying or anything. But…

As far as I can tell, every child gets bullied. It’s a way of establishing a pecking order. The kids who go home crying are the ones who end up in the bottom of the pecking order. I can think of many times I was physically attacked and severely teased, but I never saw it as bullying. I took it in stride and fought back, which established my position in the top of the hierarchy. I don’t think you can eradicate this kind of behavior. Adults behave this way as well, though it’s expressed in more subtle ways.

5

** MGibson** they should learn how to deal with mean people, but that does not mean that they are currently. When was the last time you had to ignore a bully taunting you?

6

I had one bad year of physical and verbal abuse (the 8th grade). It wasn’t until years later that I realized it came from kids that had to drop out of school and looked at me as a symbol of those that would be able to stay. I smile to myself when I hear someone say that their family was poor, but they didn’t realize it. My family was well off and I didn’t realize it.

:slight_smile: [sup]Everything is relative.[/sup]

7

Struggle for social inclusion is an essential but nasty part of being human. I would like to see the worst of it cut out, though. I fought back, though it didn’t put me at the top of any order - I didn’t want to be in the order in the first place. So much for that ideal…

8

It’s all a matter of degree. I think mild teasing and name calling is part of the growing-up process – for both the teaser and the teasee. If it is severe enough that emotional problems surface, it’s too much. Physical bullying is over the edge. I think little things like taking a kid’s hat and tossing it back and forth is no big deal, but any time a kid gets beat up, shoved down the stairs, etc., is extreme and needs to be dealt with seriously. Parents and teachers need to seriously look at the problem and determine if the kid is in danger or just needs to toughen up a bit. Any report of bullying that is reported should be investigated fully.

9

I was “teased” (such an innocuous-sounding word) pretty intensely for 10 years or so as a kid in public school.
a) Acute harassment and physical assault is NOT something that’s OK just because all parties are kids; however

b) You aren’t going to get rid of it with rules and attempts to enforce them. Kids behave like this for a reason and it isn’t merely because “kids will be kids”. Implementing a police state to protect the sensitive vulnerable kids would not help kids like me, who ultimately would have troubles with the authority figures enforcing rules for the same reason we have trouble with bullies.

10

Anyone who either grew up with siblings, or parents more than one child, knows that some unpleasantness can occur no matter how close an eye you keep out, or how hard you try to reinforce positive values. So it certainly should not surprise anyone that some degree of same occurs in social groups of youngsters outside the family - whether sporting teams, school, scouts, etc.

I get tired of the “kids will be kids” explanation. Bullshit. Badly behaved kids will be badly behaved, but not all kids need to be. And bad behavior does not need to be ignored or tolerated.

I also see a tendency among a substantial portion of adults to be aware of differences between people - whether racial, economic, ethnic, religious… And many many people seem to wish to establish a pecking order - with someone beneath them. Many folk seem not to realize that they can build themselves up in ways other than tearing someone else down. If not all adults have grown out of this tendency, it would be surprising for kids to not demonstrate it.

IMO, teasing/bullying is at its worst when the object has NO friends. That is when I feel it has the most potential for really damaging the victim.

As Echokitty said - there is no black and white. Much of it comes down to a matter of degree. But I believe schools need to provide resources for kids who feel bullied to express their concerns, and receive support that they are a unique and special person, and that 3d-party insults do not change that. A school may not be able to completely prevent a namecaller from carrying on as he wishes. But it can try to work with the perceived victim to help them identify reasons to feel good about themself.

And I believe smaller groups - such as sports teams or scouts, need to be even more intolerant of bullying/insults. I was VERY distressed when my son’s cub scout pack turned a blind eye to much unpleasantness. IMO, it hade all the talk of “brotherhood” hypocritical. To tolerate such seems to run counter to the very idea of team members supporting each other.

11

On my ride to work this morning.

12

I think kids should experience being both popular and being unpopular. The former gives them self-esteem and helps them to develop social skills. The latter may allow them to feel confortable with their own individuality and help them to develop a healthy dose of a “fuck you if you don’t like me, because I’m probably better than you anyway” attitude. You need both skills.

Many people who grew up as the victims of bullies are often motivated to prove people wrong. I don’t think you develop this ambition if people are always fawning over you.

13

Thanks for starting this thread, neutron star. I was thinking of doing so myself when I saw it.

I was next to the bottom of the pecking order in my school until 11th grade (age 15), and bottom of the pecking order for the last two years. The girl who was below me was my best friend. I’ll call her S for this thread. As I’ve said elsewhere, she had mild handicaps, including a speech impediment, and she had to wear a back brace. I met her in kindergarten; she’d been held back a year because she was too weak to get on the school bus. Now, 11 years of sticking up for my friend left me a pretty tough cookie. S wasn’t as fortunate. We both worked out early on that crying only made it worse, but she couldn’t help it. She had a nervous breakdown the summer between 10th and 11th grade.

Sorry, chula, I cannot agree with the idea that she deserved what she got. She was a genuinely nice person who is less capable of cruelty than any human being I’ve ever met. That very inability to retaliate made her even more of a target. She also didn’t have the physical strength to fight off bullying, and neither of us had the skills to fight off the backbiting, gossip, and “Today you’re my friend; tomorrow you’re not” that some girls do. S was pulled out of that school that summer, and she didn’t return. She would have been able to attend graduation with the rest of our class. She didn’t because she was afraid she’d be put down, and I’m certain she would have.

As for your humble CJ’ (pronounced “Seige” in this case), I had 11 years of protecting my best friend from bullies. I thought I failed. I attempted suicide the autumn after S’s breakdown, and, in a desparate attempt to get help, to get things to stop, I confessed to that attempt later that year in a Social Studies class. The bullying got worse. Before that happened, I ate lunch standing up because no one would let me sit next to them; I rode the bus standing up for the same reason. When S and I were on the same bus (not every year), I’d take advantage of being quick and fairly athletic and get seats for both of us. I usually succeeded. I could not walk down a hallway without being insulted. For me to smile at someone was considered an insult; if a fellow had had the courage to date me, he would also have become a target of ridicule. As a matter of principle, I would have turned him down. After my confession, in my nice, safe suburban town, back around 1980, a kid pulled a knife on me. I didn’t see who. I just saw the knife. I was also too beaten down to report it. Why should I? Experience told me nothing would have been done.

Twenty years later, I like the fact that I have a tendency to mount my white chargere and go tilting at windmills, and that I will give anyone a chance. As I’ve said innumerable times, I’m in therapy for clinical depression. One of the things I’ve been slowly realizing is I’m not the unlikable, unlovable, worthless, stupid, ugly person I believed I was when I graduated from high school. That self image is slowly fading. Still, I’m always pleasantly surprised when I read that one of you wonderful people like me. I will not regret defending S, but I do admit it scarred me horribly.

So, getting back to the OP at long last, I’ll admit that a certain amount of teasing and establishing the pecking order is natural. I think, however, that schools have an obligation to see when it’s getting out of hand. Just as a hint, a kid confessing suicide, or eating lunch on top of the radiator when there are a lot of empty seats should be a pretty good indication that things are going too far.

Oh yes, one reason I do, it feels like constantly, argue for homosexuals is there was a fellow who has been my friend since 5th grade, and who stood by me in public during those last two awful years. About 5 years ago, he rather hesitantly told me he was gay. With all due respect to those who don’t share my views, nothing on this earth will be able to convince me that this man who took a risk to be my friend is any less “morally straight” than the people who made my life a living hell.

Excuse me. This has been long and more emotional than usual for me, but this is a subject I feel particularly strongly about. I was lucky to survive my experience of being bullied, and I would give all I have to prevent someone else from going through what my best friend and I did.

CJ

14

Whoa - when did I say that?! All I did was explain what occurs in my experience. In fact, your story supports my point very well.

15

I read a comment here about how kids should experience being unpopular. And how it builds character. Currently I am extremely depressed and starting to take Paxil. Before I started, oh, seventh grade, I had pretty good self-esteem, had a sizeable number of friends. I was happy. But then bullying (verbal) started. I think of myself as a pathetic, worthless, loser. I generally cry every night. I have one friend, and he is just like me. All I can think about are all the people who have rejected me, and bullied me. Calling me gay, faggot, nerd, dork, loser. (I should note that the use of “gay” and “faggot” as insults by my peers is quite disturbing. I am not gay, but I would think that using gay as a synonym for “stupid” is quite offensive). Everyone who was my friend has drifted away as everyone formed into cliques. I did not. Nobody wanted me as their friend anymore. I was that stupid dorky kid. And the abuse wasn’t just physical, people would trip me in the hall, slam me against lockers, knock me into garbage cans. And laugh at it. I thought of suicide every day. I thought of getting a gun and shooting people at the school every day. I thought and dreamed about death and mortality every night. And although the suicidal/homicidal feelings have passed, I still think of myself as the unpopular friendless loser. I’m a complete mess. And it’s because of the bullying…

I was too scared to tell a teacher about them. But I doubt it would do any good. They KNEW it was going on. They saw it. It happened right in front of them. And they didn’t do anything about it. It’s like they didn’t care. The district has a zero-tolerance policy on violence/threats of violence. They should extend that to bullying.

Oh, by the way, I’ll say “unneeded abuse”

16

I’m not going to whine about being bullied from kindergarten through high school. YES I’m abnormally short, YES kids picked on me, and YES I still have a few self-esteem issues despite learning to love myself in recent years. But let’s talk bullying in general here. It’s wrong. I know I’ve been guilty of it in the past (before I knew my best friend, I threw tennis balls at her in gym class, and another friend and I laughed at her behind her back), and forgiving myself for it has been quite the ordeal.

First of all, I’ll admit to picking on my sister a lot. She picks on me too. We’re siblings, we’re supposed to poke fun at each other. We often play this game where we pretend to be each other, and we make fun of each other the whole time. She’ll dress in my clothes with pillows to emphasize the fat rolls, and I’ll dangle her little training bras from her doorknob. Neither of us are hurt and offended, and it’s all in good fun. She and some of the neighbor kids go around pantsing each other all the time, but most of them don’t mind. When my little neighbor pantsed her in front of a group of kids, she was too busy laughing to be embarrassed, and things were ok. The thing is, there’s a difference between fun teasing and harmful teasing.

Things like pulling hair, spitting on people, hitting them, tripping them, and sexual harassment are wrong. Tormenting people until they cry is wrong. If the victim isn’t laughing, it’s not ok. Bullying causes massive psychological damage, and there’s nothing worse than being treated like shit in 7th grade when all you want is a friend. Unfortunately, it’s a huge problem, and it’s virtually unstoppable. Plus, fighting back can get the victim in trouble too.

17

I’m looking for my cites (it’ll take me a while to find them), but back in my credential program, my team and I wrote a paper on bullying. Here are some of the statistics I remember off the top of my head:

  • 60% of those convicted of violent offenses self-identified as bullies

  • both bullies and victims of bullying expressed extremely high levels of lonliness in adult life.

  • victims of bullying often has difficulty forming intimate relationships in adulthood.

-victims of bullying have significantly higher rates of clinical depression even years after the bullying events.

There are several threads on this board that touch on the effects of bullying. They are real, they are pervasive, and they are unnecessary. Some of the stories can break your heart. One article on bullying by Sars at tomatonation.com is so good, I read it to my eighth graders.

You know, it’s all very well to say “children need to learn how to toughen up” and “there’s always a pecking order”. Those things are true, after all, but bullying does not have to be a part of that. A child can become tough and self-reliant by learning skills and being capable. You don’t have to throw them to the proverbial wolves to accomplish that.

If you think bullying isn’t so bad, or that it doesn’t happen too much, I invite you to spend a day or so at the middle school where I teach. While the principal, the math/PE teacher, and I are death on bullying, we can’t be everywhere, and those kids can dish out some vicious shit. The daughter of a friend was recently bullied by several boys in band class - they took turns asking her for blow-jobs while mimicking masturbation with their instruments. Once she reported it, one kid with a history got himself hauled in front of the juvenile court extension. The others got suspensions of one or two days.

I think one of the reasons it’s so bad is because we put our children in an age-ghetto. It’s unnatural. Children learn by watching and trying out the behavior of those around them. When it’s mostly adults, they’ll mostly try out mature, responsible behavior. When it’s mostly kids, it turns into a feedback system that grows into an incredible monster. What would normally be cut short by a grown-up snapping at them becomes a gauntlet of ridicule and humiliation.

Yes, we need to take bullying more seriously. There are a few school shootings that might have been stopped if the school faculty and administration had listened to the victims instead of blowing them off. We don’t even do justice to the bullies, because they often end up alone and miserable, never having acquired the social skills that make life work.

18

It seems to me that the people who say bullying isn’t all that bad or it’s part of the natural order never were really bullied themselves. In school it seems that there is a pack mentality and anyone who isn’t a part of the popular “clique” is fair game.
I don’t have statistics to quote however I know that many gay/lesbian/tran teens commit suicide because they can’t handle the social abuse. I wonder how many other teens suicide over it? Do there statistics get ignored because they don’t have a very vocal sub culture to speak up about it?

Every time I see something on the news, like columbine, or any kind of issue at a school it always seems to get back to the kids being abused by their social peers and the teacher/principal or whoever was in charge didn’t step in and fix things before they blew up.

I have had the opportunity to go back to some of the schools I went to as a child/teen and interact with the administration as an adult and view the principals and teachers from an adult perspective. I know this is from a limited sample but I found them to be a bunch of freaks with only a few exceptions. More interested in being in control and what is proper or not proper, as opposed to right, like little Billy getting beat up for his lunch money on the way to school.

19

Bullying needs to end. Now. Our school is pretty aggressive in its anti-bully efforts. When my son was in 6th grade, he got picked on when riding the bus. One call to the assistant principal, and he boarded the bus and let the bullies know that would be the end of it and it was. What still goes on but is harder to do anything about is ostracism.

Every time a Columbine type shooting occurs, the shooter seems to be a victim of bullying. How many must die before we figure this out? Let’s get tough- you bully someone once you get a warning. Do it again and you’re expelled.

20

Transsgendered peoples have an abnormally high murder rate, 16 times that of an average person. And these are just the known rates. Many, many more are killed each year. It is also estimated that the suicide rate is even higher than 50%, although, once again, the exact number is not known. All of my transsgendered friends (and many of my gay friends too) have been close to suicide at one point in their life. And all of them fear for their lives.

And, for the most part, people don’t care and the murderers get away with it. One of the most recent cases was a 17 year old m2f who was murdered by his former classmates.

here is an article:
http://www.youthquest.bc.ca/servplan2002/needsassessment.htm