Do you agree that it condones it in defense of Islam and Muslims? Who decides what it needs to defend against and whom?
A few other quotes as support (Osama himself seems to agree):
There have been a series of terrorist acts linked to radical Islam™ in Indonesia starting with the Bali bombing which killed 202 people.
The same general process that spawns terrorists in the Middle East exists in Indonesia. From the South Asia Analysis Group:** Ansja’ad Mbai who heads the anti terror desk at the office of the Chief Security Minister said recently “50 % of Muslim clerics preaching at Friday prayers had often encouraged hatred and hostility against other religious groups” (Jakarta Post 24 October 2005).**
**Investigations of the major terrorist incidents in Bali and Jakarta since 2002 have revealed that some of these pesantren are “breeding extremists through radical interpretation of Islam”. Three of the men convicted for the Bali and Marriott Hotel attacks have been students of the Al-Mukmin boarding school founded by Abu Bakaar Bashir, the alleged head of Jemaah Islamiah.
Sidney Jones, a terrorism expert and Director of the International Crisis Group, has said that there are18 Islamic schools affiliated to the terror cell of Jemaah Islamiah in the country which were used to train Jihadis. She has also linked these schools with an university in Surakarta, Central Java.**
Training children in a school dedicated to radical Islam™ appears to be the same recipe used by terrorist groups in the Middle East and around the world.
As does the law of every Western country, I believe. Ah, those bloody savages and their barbaric notions of “self-defense” !
I really enjoy this quote game of yours, can I play too ?
For your convenience, I bolded the bits that you should consider extra spooky. Read the whole thing here, it’s really quite frightful. Lots of scary words.
I like how you picked and chose your cites. Things are not static there. By quoting selectively you ignore the dynamics and fluidity of public opinions. Again, that data are old and not reflective of what’s going on the ground.
Support for radicalism has been up and down in Indonesia. It was going up between 2002-2005. It was up during the heights of the Iraq war definitely. But it’s been on the way down since. In fact in the last election in Indonesia, almost all Islamic parties suffered defeats.
Against what are they defending? When I defend myself, I am in peril for my life or property (depending on what jurisdiction I am in). I am not defending some made up notion of god.
Are you claiming the quote was from god? Are you claiming it should guide our actions today and into the future? Are you planning to start a religion based upon these words? Otherwise, what is your point?
Exactly. Osama bin Laden, the zealot whose first targets were other Muslims who did not share his beliefs, chooses to interpret various passages of his scripture in a particular way–and you choose to support him in those efforts.
It is rather like quoting Richard Butler, Rob Matthews, and Eric Rudolph on the meaning of the Christian scriptures, then deciding that their views are what Billy Graham, Dorothy Day, and Philip Berrigan “really” believed.
When it was written, *they *were defending themselves from Meccan authorities, I believe.
But in a more general sense, I think those verses would be applicable and inspirational/comforting and therefore quotable whenever some exterior power invades a Muslim community, kingdom or country with bad intentions. As I demonstrated, you can find echoes of the same concepts in most speeches made by leaders of countries facing invasion or communities facing persecution.
Isn’t the idea that even though evil might triumph today, it will all be made right and just eventually half the point of the concept of god(s) ?
My point is you can cherry-pick any text for the scary bits, strip it of all context and make it sound aggressive.
Which doesn’t make those scary bits universal, all encompassing or even literally true. Yes, that also applies to religious texts meant to edumacate medieval people. Yes, even if modern fanatics insist that they are.
I’ll reiterate since you didn’t read it the first time : Manson justified his actions with the lyrics of Helter Skelter. Does it make Paul McCartney a bad bad man ? All Beatles fans, maybe ? Who the fuck pays attention to what nutters say or believe, let alone base themselves on that to judge everyone else ?
To the Mods, I have tried, with much effort, to edit this down and still leave the usable context; I hope you find it acceptable.
Don, one gets the impression from your posts that you see Muslims as sub-human cartoon monsters, a mindless ravening horde bent on consuming the world like the aliens in independence Day.
You can be impressed any way you desire, that is not my problem to deal with.
You claim that there are no such thing as moderate Muslims,
My response:
Here read for yourself:
(These references are NOT copyrighted—but can be used for non-monetary purposes, as long as the source (web site) is identified.)
Exposing the Myth of Moderate Islam
It is time to put an end to the charade of “moderate Islam.” There is no such thing as moderate Muslim. Muslims are either jihadists or dormant jihadists – moderate, they are not.
by Ali Sina, FaithFreedom.org, March 14, 2010
(read more if you like at the site listed)
Ali Sina is a de-converted Muslim born and raised in the Islamic culture. He has written several books on Islam, has on line debates with top Islamic scholars on the validity of the Koran and Hadith, post many articles, and is an authority of the ins and out of the Islamic culture and history. I suggest you go argue with him, as he is a greater authority on the topic than you have shown yourself. His material is easily found on the net.
The list is very long of on line de-converted Muslims that agree with him in their own personal experiences and studies that have come to the same conclusion only said in different words but make the same points as that is why they de-converted to get away from the Islamic cult of death as they want no part of it.
There is also a very long list of Islamic preachers (on line) that call for the death of the USA, every Muslim do Jihad, raise up and take arms to kill the infidels, Allah demands Jihad, and many listen to them as Hamas the killed 12 at Ft. Hood, 9/11, and the 5-6 Islamic terrorist acts that happen every day that I have referenced repeatedly.
We also have 54 Islamic countries where Islamic Sheria supports the cult of death in all of its barbarous acts, as Saudi and Pakistan that are leading exporters of Jihads to the world at large with Iran being close behind and fighting for first place.
How Islam works is on this order, that is the same pattern they have used threw out history for the last 1400 years. Here is the fastest reference and more to come if you like.
fast summery confirmed on many other sites–
“There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam … by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.”
Taqiyya - Saying something that isn’t true.
Kitman - Lying by omission.
“…example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka’b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and again later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims…”
Here are some Koran scriptures for back up.
Qur’an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie.
Qur’an (3:28) – take no friends of outsiders unless to deceive them
Qur’an (9:3) – (much of the chapter) ok to break your oath of peace after you gained safe travel from non-believers
Qur’an (40:28) - ok to hide your faith with lies
Qur’an (2:225) – Allah only judges your heart not your words
Qur’an (66:2) – Allah has already broken your oath
Qur’an (3:54) - Allah is the best of schemers
As far as interpretation goes it is hard core Islamic teaching (under death threat) to NEVER interpret the Koran on your own.
Conclusion:
To acknowledge the possibility of moderate Muslins that have their own interpretation of the Koran is to prove for fact there are extremist. So you are that skilled, perhaps better than God or Allah, to know a moderate Muslim from an extremist? You want to bet your life on it? You get to loose one time only and the game is over. Just ask the victims of 9/11—OH that is right, they are dead.
I say we burn the Koran in open protest to Muslims that we do not buy their Islam crap and lies any longer.
NOW, if you would like to reference, or give your opinion, what exactly is a moderate Muslim and how do you know, I would be happy to look at it.
Don
A moderate Muslim is one who lives his life quietly and with consideration for his friends, family and neighbours. (Bit like a moderate Christian, Hindi or Jew, really).
You can find them everywhere doing exactly that.
Of course, you also get the extremist Muslims who spend their time trying to rubbish religions other than their own and stir up hatred against them.
A bit like some Christians, really. 
The difference between the 2 religions, or all of them for that matter, is the level of discord that is actually taught and acted upon. Fred Phelps (official Christian whipping boy) represents the high end of vocal discontent with anything that moves. The politically correct thing to do is say that he doesn’t represent Christianity. But he does represent the extremes of the religion. He’s not mainstream but he’s out there alive and well.
Take the example I cited regarding Islam in Indonesia. 50% of the Imams actively preach against other religions. There are schools dedicated to the extreme side of Islam and it is from these schools that terrorists come from. When comparing extreme Islam and extreme Christianity there are elements that stand out which makes violence more likely with Islam. The concepts of “brotherhood” creates an us versus them mentality that is made worse by the idea of reward through martyrdom. The fire is kept burning bright by 5 daily reminders of religious commitment.
The difference is that while the Fred Phelp’s Christian extremists of the world exist, they aren’t statistically likely to create a terrorist group. The opposite is true with Islam.
This is my point. He interprets it in a particular way. He doesn’t have to move the bar much to do so even if he is moving the bar at all. Just because the majority believe otherwise doesn’t make them right and him wrong. Unless you think that god’s plan is determined by the majority’s vote and actions. In which case you’ve made a good case for there not being a god.
If my new religion consisted of:
“Be kind to each other”
“Don’t be an ass”
I’m sure someone could figure out how this says to hate others and be an ass. But, it would be a very long reach for them to do so.
No. Nor does it make him right and them wrong. But it does mean that if you are claiming that “Islam” says or does one thing or another when large numbers of Muslims disagree, then you are wrong.
I would even doubt that claim if you read my cites upthread. Despite an overwhelming majority, Islamic parties lost big time last year in Indonesia, in fact, they never even gained significant number of seats in the parliament even at the heights of their popularity. Heck, Indonesia even had a female president a few years ago.
Just imagine if just, say 10%, of the whole muslim pop. have the mentality as you suggest they subscribe to, do you think the world would be likt it is today?
I stand corrected. Thanks for answering.
“Propaganda”? Come on Don123, you’re smarter than that! Quite a bit of mathematics came from those Islamic caliphates. They were essential for the medieval European scholars who wanted to reboot their mud-eating education system. Where do you think we got the zero from? Yeah, okay India, but those Caliphating mathematicians quickly grasped the meaning and were quick to implement it into their world, and we in turn imported.
Have you ever been to an Islamic country BTW?
I have. In fact, one Muslim woman who had a little too much to drink gave me a nice kiss on the lips. That’s the kinda jihad I’m looking for! Oh yeah! 
You realize that at least 58 of the victims of 9/11 were themselves Muslims, that there were Muslim passengers on those planes, that there were Muslim employees in the towers and Muslim servicemembers in the Pentagon, and that there were Muslim police, firemen, and EMTs who were sent there that way. You also realize that most Islamic terrorism is against other Muslims. You realize all this, right?
You don’t know much about Islam, and what’s worse is that most of what you know about Islam isn’t true.
Here’s a few more
[quotes]
(Facebook) about Islam, from one of our great statesman:
and
From Speech in Hong Kong (9/23/09).
So? I have never claimed that Phelps (or Butler or Matthews or Rudolph or Franklin Graham) are not Christians. They are, as you note, at the extremes of the religion. So your straw man about “political correctness” is irrelevant to anything I have said.
However, your attempt to flip that around and claim that Islam is some horrendous movement because it also has violent extremists fails on the evidence, as well.
In every case where “Islam” is demonstrating violence, it is simply the organizing vehicle to permit people who have been oppressed to react to that oppression or those whose lives have been thrown into chaos to take control of their lives again. In Indonesia, the Philipines, India, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iran, and other countries, Muslims were persecuted or Islam was suppressed. In Europe, immigrants are treated harshly, but they can look around and see that the vast majority of their fellow immigrants are Muslim. In Iraq and Lebanon, the countries are in chaos and the overthrown regimes had made it a point to protect and favor one religious group over another. In Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, and a number of other countries, the governments are corrupt and one strong voice demanding reform is that of the conservative faction of Islam. Since no one in the “Democratic” or “Christian” (or “secular”) West ever worked to alleviate those situations, (and, in too many cases, actively supported the oppressors or even created the problems), then the Fundamentalist Muslims have an easy time getting their message out.
If it were true that Islam was inherently more likely to produce terrorists, then Northern India should have been the home of terrorism more than 200 years ago, parts of the Philipines should have been wracked by terror for about as long, Indonesia’s terrorist outbreaks should have begun in the 1950s, and the Shah of Iran should have been subjected to ongoing terrorism dating back to 1953. This is not the case. Islamic terrorism arose in the wake of social upheavals in the world that allowed suppressed Muslim groups to recognize that they might be able to become their own masters. Without making any silly claims about a “religion of peace,” it is rather easy to see that the overall violence has less to do with the nature of Islam than it does with the particular situations where violence has broken out.
I don’t know about “statistically likely” but Christian terrorism isn’t exactly unknown, including everyone’s favorite Christian group the Lord’s Resistance Army:
Numbers killed are sketchy but the Wiki page suggests a couple of thousand in the last two and half years alone, over 100,000 displaced and well over 10,000 children abducted and forced to fight as soldiers. What terrible things these Christians do…
I will have to get back to you (soon I hope) on the Islamic golden age as of right now we are figuring on the best way to burn the Koran, and if we should or not, and who to invite if it happens.
Don
Do consider, when making that important decision, that by doing so you implicitly forfeit your right to have an apoplectic shit fit any time Muslims, or communists, or students, or the French (the French !) burn an American flag for any reason whatsoever without rightly being fingered as a most craven hypocrite.
Are you positively sure you want to permanently let go of so recreational an outrage ?
Then again, you’ve already got that whole “All of them are intolerant, lock 'em all up !” shtick going, so maybe you’ve already got a contingency anti-cognitive dissonance plan for that eventuality.