There’s no debate here.
Well, GET busy then. Contact the House of Representatives, get those Artlicles of Impeachment drawn up, voted on, and passed. Otherwise, you’re just whining.
As silly as this thread is, I think there’s a valid point in here somehwere. There are certain people who jump up and down about flag-burning and about tradition.
Bush’s signing of the flag is a traditional desecration of it. For me, I don’t think either burning the flag or signing it is much to get worked up over. But the next time I hear somebody lecture me about either (a) flag-burning or (b) tradition, I will gleefully point out that Bush desecrated an American flag.
It’s what BrightNShiny said. It’s not so much the trivial desecration as, A: Bush’s apparent ignorance of what actually is desecration of the flag, B: his support of a constitutional amendment to make it a federal crime, and C: his desecration of said flag despite B.
Me, I was ‘raised right’. Respectful child. Grew up chewing Heinlein. I support the right to burn the flag, as much as I honor Old Glory and what she stands for. Burning the flag is political speech, and a fine part of our country’s tradition.
This is dishonoring the flag, disregard of the colors of our country by the personal representation of our country… and all his minions. For no real reason at all.
It’s not that it should be illegal. It’s barely even that he doesn’t know better.
It’s that as part of his job, he should know better.
That’s just plain silly.
As I said, here in Australia almost every Aussie soldier (man or woman) who recently returned from service in Iraq, chose to request of Prime Minister Howard at a special “closed party” for those servicemen and various dignitaries and politocos, well they asked John Howard to sign their flags - along with anyone else who they thought was worth getting to sign it.
Nobody anywhere here in Australia had a problem with it whatsoever. It was universally perceived as a display of good will and cameraderie.
So why then, do some of you Americans have the misguided gall to think that YOUR flag is somehow above such human frailty? Why do some of you carry on as though your flag is on a par with the very cup that Christ himself drank out of? Coz that’s what you sound like you know… Man, dial back the sanctimonious condescension - please! For fuck’s sake… your President was merely signing a fucking flag - it’s a cool thing to do. Far out. It’s not as though he was wiping his ass with it.
It was a cool thing for John Howard to do when my fellow Australian soldiers asked THEIR commander in chief to do it to the Australian flag, and some of you Americans should just chill out and recognise it as being a pretty cool thing for your COC to do.
All of you yanks who keep arguing that it was some sort of mortal sin? All I can say is that the rods up your asses have got rods up THEIR asses.
This is so absurd.
I’m on record as being a Grade-A anal flag etiquette weenie, and even I have a hard time getting worked up over this.
Bush’s action seems to me to be an absentminded gesture performed at the spur of the moment. Some folks shove flags your way and ask for an autograph, so you pull out your pen and sign 'em. The whole thing probably happened in a couple of minutes; it isn’t like Bush had time to sit there and ponder all the ramifications of signing a flag.
Heck, like I said, I’m a flag weenie, and even I probably would have signed 'em under those circumstances.
Well, I probably wouldn’t have unless I didn’t notice, but I’m not someone in favor of an admendment to the constitution prohibiting desecration of said flag, am I?
See, that’s the part that tickles my indignation lever. He wants to amend the constitution to alter the first amendment to prohibit certain forms of political speech.
Then he goes and performs the same act he wants to not only outlaw, but modify the the most critical paragraph of the most important document in America, and possibly the world, to exclude.
I’m pretty sure that’s hypocracy. And that he did it absent-mindedly doesn’t really help much. That’s where my problem lies.
Man, I dislike the Prez as much as the next guy, but this has to be one of the most ridiculously pointless ‘debates’ ever.
Reeder, I think we all understand the depth of your hatred for Bush by now. It’s OK. You really don’t have to launch these idiotic threads anymore.
Some of you Americans have got no sense of humility whatsoever, have you? Now please note, only a very small portion of you fall into this department, and by the far the majority of Americans on this postboard are wonderfully fair and modest people, but holy shit… what sort of total lack of graciousness deficiency must you have to describe your Constitution as arguably the most important document in the world?
Holy, Holy, fuck. That is just so incredibly conceited to us non Americans who also live in prosperous, stable, democratic Western societies.
And don’t give me this crap that you Americans invented democracy either. Modern democracy, at the very least goes back to the Oliver Cromwell era and Canon Law at least.
But how’s the foot in mouth moment? Suggesting that the US Constitution is arguably the most important document of all time. Jesus. Have you not ever heard of the Magna Carta?
The US Constitution is a Britney Spears pop song compared to the Magna Carta.
You know, I once met some Mormons who were out here preaching the good word, and they told me once, with a straight face, that they believed that the US Constitution was a gift from God himself. And I thought to myself, nahh, you guys are winding me up, surely?
But then I read posts like the one above and some of you Americans really honestly believe that shit don’t you?
I can’t help thinking that if Bill Clinton had been caught doing this he would have been raked over the coals on talk radio for it. Personally I don’t care what anybody does to their own flags, it’s just a piece of cloth AFAIAC, but it does show hypocrisy and ignorance on Shrub’s part considering he supports the flag burning amendment.
I also have to say that it is kind of offensive for the most anti-American “president” in recent memory to be marking up the flag with his crayons. I’d rather smear dogshit on my own flag than have Bush deface it with his autograph but to each his own…
Now Diogenes - I don’t have a problem with what you just said there - not one little bit. If a man is being hypocritical, then he’s guilty as charged. No two ways about it.
What I also liked is that you merely presented the case for hypocrisy on it’s own merits - without applying ethereal, biblical overtones to either your flag, or your constitution. It’s that latter tendency which really, REALLY rankles a huge percentage of the rest of the world.
It is childish to stick to mysterious rules rather than judging intent. You can do pretty much anything with the flag or with your mother and if your intention is to honor them, then that is what you are doing. And you can do anything and if the intention is to insult, then that is what you are doing.
Burning the flag out on the street while trampling on it shows an intention to insult the flag while burning it respectfullt to dispose of it shows respect.
If you scribble something insulting on the flag then I would assume the intention is to insult it but if you write something respectfully then you are honoring it.
Intent is everything and the President had no intention of desecrating the flag. This has to be among the top three stupidest OPs of all time.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fear Itself *
Well, since my ceremony transferring me to the Fleet Reserve was in December of 1999 (I got some vacation time prior to my actual retirement date of February 2000), one guess who’s signature actually is on the certificates signed by the President.
p.s.
The flag is not a sacred item. The country is not a church. Patriotism is not a religion.
The flag is a flag.
Please be so kind as to correct in your mind “who’s” in the posting above to the correct “whose” and the posting will then have proper S&G. Thanks.
The country is a country.
Patriotism is patriotism.
And just for good measure: the posting just above is supposed to read as follows.
Please be so kind as to correct in your mind “who’s” in the posting above to the correct “whose” and the posting will then have proper S&G. Thanks.
The flag is not a sacred item. The country is not a church. Patriotism is not a religion.
The flag is a flag.
The country is a country.
Patriotism is patriotism.
Really? So if someone goes and urinates on the flag, and he sincerely believes that he’s paying honor to it (“I am cleaning the flag of my country with water purified by my own kidneys”), you wouldn’t raise a fuss and a howl?
(Note that I wouldn’t have a problem with it, because I don’t give a fig what someone wants to do with a piece of cloth that he properly owns. But then, I’m not in favor of a law that says “you can do anything you want with the flag as long as we approve of your intentions.”)
This is ridiculous. If I thought having an impeachment vote ASAP would get him out of office, hell yes I’d be spending my free time trying to make that vote happen. An immediate impeachment vote would be a very unwise political strategy, but that doesn’t change the fact that his conduct violates his constitutional duties.
This is quite possibly the most ridiculous thread, well, ever.
There are fat housewives (and skinny ones too, I imagine) with screen printed T-shirts with “God Bless the USA” over a flag…
Do you get in their faces, Reeder, every time you see them? They have a freshly (or at least clearly) written-on flag right there over their chests…
Car dealers in this country try to outflag each other in a desperate attempt to flog more cars- “no we’re the patriotic Chevy dealer around here, bud”- and you really consider that to be respect for one’s flag?
The American flag is one of the most important commercial icons ever- just think of all the products you’ve ever seen with the flag on them- its up there with Mickey Mouse- and every single one of those products is a defilement of the flag of the Republic.
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but I think you’ll find that the rest of the Western world doesn’t need laws defining what you can and can’t do with a flag- ITS A BIG FUCKING PIECE OF CLOTH, and they recognise this. It doesn’t make them less patriotic than you- perhaps less blindly so- it just means they’re reasonable people.
Sorry, the second sentence there was supposed to end in “all over the country”…