[QUOTE=Scylla]
FWIW, in the recent JFK 50 I ran several miles with a recently returned veteran who told me that most Iraqis were greatful and appreciative.
[/QUOTE]
Be honest with me. If someone had tried to disagree with a claim of yours by saying “well recently I played bridge with someone who said the opposite”, would you accept that point, or would you ignore it as an anecdote with no basis in fact?
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Well, I think they do. The Kurds are hwaaaay better off.
[/quote]
But that debt of graditude is due to Bush’s father and Clinton, not to the Iraq war. The Kurds have basically been their own autonomous region out of Saddam’s control for some time now. If anything, they have to be a little annoyed that we’ve dragged them back into this whole mess called “Iraq.”
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Well, I think they do. The Kurds are hwaaaay better off.
[/QUOTE]
I always thought the words were “curds” and “whey”. Ignorance fought. 
Hey, can we do song lyrics in another thread later…?
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Well, I think they do. The Kurds are hwaaaay better off.
[/quote]
Un less they live outside their own ‘region’.
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
As for the rest of the nation- right now, not so much.
[/quote]
Not so much? :eek: Tens of thousands have died, the major cities are divided on sectarian lines, the police are not trusted, the army has been disbanded and militias rule over cities with real problems of power and water supply.
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
But they do have freedom and the potential of a peaceful democratic nation. They had no hope at all before. Not to mention nerve gas attacks, genocide, institutionalized real torture, and other horrors.
[/quote]
Yes, those who are not dead have some hope. When do you expect there to be a peaceful, democratic Iraq?
As for nerve gas attacks, when was the last one?
As for genocide, more Iraqis have died since the current invasion than in the event you refer to.
As for undefined ‘horrors’, do you think the imminent threat of civil war counts as a horror?
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Not that we had any business invading Iraq. But many- including myself- think that giving up a little security for a lot of freedom is worth it. If I was an Iraqi, I’d want freedom despite the slightly higher risk.
Sorry, I know that most of us here think that the Iraq invasion is Eviiiiil, and I agree it was the wrong thing to do, and it cost America far too much, but in the long run, I think it will be better for the Iraqi people. Already the Kurds are way better off.
[/QUOTE]
When you say ‘freedom’, do you mean that a Sunni can walk into a Shia area of Baghdad (or any other city)? Or vice versa?
How long is your long run?
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Not to mention nerve gas attacks, genocide, institutionalized real torture, and other horrors.
[/quote]
As opposed to what, the ersatz torture that US citizens inflicted? Or are you saying that Abu Ghraib was simple funning and that those darned Iraqis can’t take a joke?
An incredibly insightful thing to say from the warmth and comfort of your home in the US. Meanwhile, Iraqis are being blown up for whatever reason someone came up with that day. While Saddam was a bastard who deserved a good (by which I mean bad, with rusty pinking shears) neutering, what the US has accomplished in Iraq is to totally destroy an entire nation and its infrastructure and wind up at the point where the only option accepted by Bush fils is to throw more lives at a last ditch effort to try and see if we might be able to make an omelette. Downside to that being that those in the know (military strategists and the like) are saying that the number that Bush the lesser wants to throw at Iraqle is wholly inadequate. But that won’t stop Bush, nosiree.
I doubt that most think it was evil. Simply stupid, shortsighted, willfully ignorant, hubristic and asinine.
Kinda wish I could share your delusion that the average Iraqi is going to wind up anything but dead or maimed at the end of this exercise in nation building, but I don’t. And the Kurds were doing just great when Saddam was in power. As it stands now, they’ll have to fight off the Shiites and Sunnis when someone in the US finally pulls the plug. And considering the track record that the US has with the Kurds, they know that full well.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
Being blown up gives you better judgment as to when you’re being lied to? I’m not getting it.
[/QUOTE]
I mentioned that he had been blown up in rebuttal to the point that he would only get positive responses from Iraqis since he had the gun. Having had one try to blow him up would show this to be incorrect, as would the fact that our troops get shot at quite a bit.
[QUOTE=Gary Kumquat]
Be honest with me. If someone had tried to disagree with a claim of yours by saying “well recently I played bridge with someone who said the opposite”, would you accept that point, or would you ignore it as an anecdote with no basis in fact?
[/QUOTE]
If you qualified it as your bridge partner recently having spent a great deal of time in Iraq, I might consider it as data point.
[QUOTE=GLWasteful]
As opposed to what, the ersatz torture that US citizens inflicted? Or are you saying that Abu Ghraib was simple funning and that those darned Iraqis can’t take a joke?
[/QUOTE]
Comparing the incidents at Abu Ghraib to decades of institutionalized daily abuses by Saddam, Uday, and Qusay is infantile in its conception. And no, I’m not defending Bush, the guards at Abu Ghraib, or even DrDeth. I’m defending reason, the boundaries of which you have crossed.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
Comparing the incidents at Abu Ghraib to decades of institutionalized daily abuses by Saddam, Uday, and Qusay is infantile in its conception. And no, I’m not defending Bush, the guards at Abu Ghraib, or even DrDeth. I’m defending reason, the boundaries of which you have crossed.
[/QUOTE]
A recent documentary of the BBC 4 on the death squads shows a Suni Iraqi parliament leader checking a Iraqi prision (many more are undocumented) that continues to capture with no due process and torture Iraqies. As in El Salvador, the next step is usually finding the people dead by the road side.
[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
A recent documentary of the BBC 4 on the death squads shows a Suni Iraqi parliament leader checking a Iraqi prision (many more are undocumented) that continues to capture with no due process and torture Iraqies. As in El Salvador, the next step is usually finding the people dead by the road side.
[/QUOTE]
What does that have to do with Abu Ghraib. The video itself identifies the culprits as Shiite militias driven by the Ministry of the Interior, and even states that “The Americans don’t rule the streets; the militia groups do.”
[QUOTE=Scylla]
If you qualified it as your bridge partner recently having spent a great deal of time in Iraq, I might consider it as data point.
[/QUOTE]
Try this one: A son of a coworker told me how in his last tour he barely survived a rocket attack to his barracks. His companion died on the spot.
He was one of the people training the new Iraqi armed forces, his assessment was that in the end they are training people to shoot each other and the Americans.
Oh yeah, he thought it sucked that they had to drive out of the base everyday to get to the training places, I don’t blame him for not trusting the trainees when it seems that someone tells the insurgency where to set the IED’s.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
What does that have to do with Abu Ghraib. The video itself identifies the culprits as Shiite militias driven by the Ministry of the Interior, and even states that “The Americans don’t rule the streets; the militia groups do.”
[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
The point is that we outsourced Abu Ghraib, As you seem to forget it is the invading army that has the ultimate responsability, when you point at “The Americans don’t rule the streets; the militia groups do.” You are indeed pointing at the OP as being correct and “the boundaries of reason” continue to be crossed in Iraq.
[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
:rolleyes:
The point is that we outsourced Abu Ghraib, As you seem to forget it is the invading army that has the ultimate responsability, when you point at “The Americans don’t rule the streets; the militia groups do.” You are indeed pointing at the OP as being correct and “the boundaries of reason” continue to be crossed in Iraq.
[/QUOTE]
Surely you know by now that Lib’s way too vested in himself and his “infallible” absurdities that trying to reason with him by way of facts is simply an exercise in futility?
BTW, here are a “few” Iraqis that are probably not all that grateful Saddam’s gone and the US is in charge of security as the occupying power as per The Geneva Convention:
[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
Try this one: A son of a coworker told me how in his last tour he barely survived a rocket attack to his barracks. His companion died on the spot.
He was one of the people training the new Iraqi armed forces, his assessment was that in the end they are training people to shoot each other and the Americans.
Oh yeah, he thought it sucked that they had to drive out of the base everyday to get to the training places, I don’t blame him for not trusting the trainees when it seems that someone tells the insurgency where to set the IED’s.
[/QUOTE]
I would think that would be every bit as valid as what I posted. I qualified my anecdote with “FWIW,” signalling that it was hardly conclusory, so you’re really not telling me anything I wasn’t aware of and haven’t stated.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
What does that have to do with Abu Ghraib. The video itself identifies the culprits as Shiite militias driven by the Ministry of the Interior, and even states that “The Americans don’t rule the streets; the militia groups do.”
[/QUOTE]
Well whose bloody fault could that be, I wonder?
[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
The point is that we outsourced Abu Ghraib, As you seem to forget it is the invading army that has the ultimate responsability, when you point at “The Americans don’t rule the streets; the militia groups do.” You are indeed pointing at the OP as being correct and “the boundaries of reason” continue to be crossed in Iraq.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, well on that level, then, I agree with you. I thought that a direct comparison was being made between Abu Ghraib and the decades of Saddam’s dictatorship. Looking back, I believe that was indeed the point that GL Wasteful made in the post to which I responded. Please review carefully my response to him where I lay out explicitly the limits of my concern.
I have an Iraqi colleague who lost a relative after the invasion because she couldn’t get dialysis. She could get it before the war, but the hospitals pretty much don’t function. Can I ask whether you want a fruit baskets or chocolate for your thank you gift?
[QUOTE=Liberal]
Comparing the incidents at Abu Ghraib to decades of institutionalized daily abuses by Saddam, Uday, and Qusay is infantile in its conception.
[/QUOTE]
People died from our torture at Abu Ghraib. What did Saddam and friends do, raise them as zombies and torture the animated corpses ?
[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
Oh yeah, he thought it sucked that they had to drive out of the base everyday to get to the training places, I don’t blame him for not trusting the trainees when it seems that someone tells the insurgency where to set the IED’s.
[/QUOTE]
I was reading an article in the Guardian the other day that said much the same thing:
This chills me more than a little, especially when our clueless leader’s new plan calls for those 20K troops to be “embedded” (anyone but me bored with that term?) in Iraqi units. Basically, we’re throwing away 20,000 lives. I wonder how many of those troops know that?
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Go tell an Iraqi woman who doesn’t dare go to school or leave home without a veil how much more free she is.
snip.
[/QUOTE]
Or tell it to an Iraqi child who can’t go to and from school on a regular basis, or without worrying every time that they’ll be kidnapped and/or killed. What can they say: “Thanks for freeing me and my generation from an education” ?
