Yes, but the US Supreme Court ruled that the way said standard was being applied in the recounts was unconstitutional.
As I said before, Kiffa, the Democratic Party may have been the victim of their own success in their “Get Out The Vote” campaign, by motivating tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of first-time voters.
People doing something for the first time, even something as important and as fundamental [to their rights as citizens] as voting, are liable to make mistakes; mistakes that may unintentionally weigh the election one-way-or-the other.
Minty Green: and just how do you fairly, or accurately, and above all else consistently determine the true “intent of the voter”?
Judgement calls? Whose judgement? Yours? Mine? Some rabidly partisan vote counter?
Don’t you see how vague the sweeping “intent of the voter” definition is, how subjectively it can be applied?
Sigh. Please read the following thread first Tank, and milroyj well, the one we’re in one for starters, and this one
The info and links about the police blockade in black neighborhoods were also discussed to death in November and December threads. I won’t go digging them up again, 'cause I’ve re-read enough of those lately that the venom in them made me feel ill. Won’t do it again. Like I said, I’m tired of folks popping into established threads and reviving the same, tired old arguments.
have fun. I’m heading home.
Yes, but it did not say that “intent of the voter” was unconstitutional. Had that been the case, the Court could not have contemplated a remand to Florida for the development of uniform standards for determining voter intent.
And you’re still dodging my question: Does the Florida election code require a vote to be perfectly cast before it can be counted? If not, will you admit that your the 100% properly-cast ballot is your own preferred standard, with no support in Florida law?
ExTank, I second wring’s suggestion that you read the previous thread. Developing consistent standards, of course, depends entirely on the kinds of voting mechanisms that are used in the various precincts. “Hanging chads” just aren’t applicable to scantron systems, for instance. But I will say that “overvotes” where a voter has both marked and written in the name of the same candidate are well within any reasonable standard of voter intent.
I have read that previous thread, and this one as well; I just remain unconvinced that, in the previous fiasco, politics could adequately be separated from the process, to achieve a fair and accurate result.
And you folks may interpret this as a slam on the Dems./Gore at your liesure; I have no doubt, had the tables been turned, that the Reps./Bush would have behaved in a very similar vein. Nature of the beast.
Nor am I disagreeing that, in the few circumstances offered as example, that the intent of the voter is unambiguous, and probably should be counted, but only if the objectivity of the counter is without question.
“We’ll count the ones for our candidate, because the intent is clear; but not the one for the other candidate, because the law says that only clearly and correctly marked ballots are legitimate votes”.
And once you have introduced humans into the equation, to manually count, to visually verify, you also introduce their prejudices and partisanship, as well.
Which is why I (and many others here, apparently) reject your “tired, old arguments” just as much as you are rejecting ours, Wring.
I wonder, I truly do wonder, if the shoe had been on the other foot, would you be agitating this loudly? Part of me, the better half I suppose, wants to believe that yes, you would.
Minty, I was here for the post-election threads in November and December, and my question remains the same. Please provide a legitimate cite that documents police or other authorities in Florida setting up road-blocks to prevent African-Americans (or anybody else, for that matter) from voting. Just one cite will do. Still waiting. Thanks.
BTW, does Kiffa or anyone else want to provide cites for the assertion that the Florida Secretary of State’s office is being abolished, or that felons have to pay $20K to regain the right to vote? Same criteria, one cite will do, and I’ll wait, but I won’t be holding my breath.
Really? you were here for all the election threads? odd that you missed all of the references then to police roadblocks intimidating black voters. Perhaps you don’t check current news reports either? CNN reports or this one or this one.
Of course, you’ll simply say that objective news reports detailing problems, investigations into the allegations doesn’t yet prove anything. Kiffa was right. By the way, there were links in the debate threads about this as well. I know, I was there and submitted some of them.
**Tank ** yea, same old tired argument - “Katherine Harris was merely doing her job, and so what that she also played a significant role in the Bush campaign in Florida, but the lowly guy at the precinct counting votes was totally incapable of acting in an objective manner 'cause he’s a democrat”
and just who would you agree would be impartial? I think the Pope was busy that week. Most people have opinions, and probably strong ones, especially about the election process. I would agree that some one who was actively campaigning shouldn’t be part of that process (Ms. Harris anyone?), but at some level you have to believe that people will do the right thing - after all, you’re trusting that the same ballot officials turn away legitimate voters with false claims they were convicted felons (oh wait, that did happen)…
Your links all point to basically the same CNN story. Anyone can make allegations, I was wondering if there was any actual evidence of wrongdoing. As I said, I won’t be holding my breath.
The stories did provide some entertaining rhetoric, though, such as this gem:
Slingshotted into slavery? :rolleyes:
I guess I should have checked in earlier to answer some of the questions raised about my point that the Florida election debate continues. Here are some cites that might be of interest to you.
a. NAACP lawsuit: check out their website http://www.naacp.org in the far right column is a list of press releases and about half way down is the release concerning the lawsuit.
b. US Commission on Civil Rights will also have something although I forgot to check as I start writing this.
c. http://www.jacksonville.com should be checked for a long list of articles on the Duval County November election. The Mayor and the President of the City Council recently established the Duval County Task Force on the Election. The Task Force has been directed to look into illegal activity as well although the members cannot force people to testify.
d. For a summary of the results with numbers and allegations, you should check out the Folio Weekly Magazine published on Nov 12, 2000 called “Down For The Count”. http://www.folioweekly.org check the archive or go to:
http://www.folioweekly.org/archives/old%20stories/112100/cover112100.html
e. For testimonials and discussion by the Florida Task Force on Elections [established by the gov’nor] please go to:
http://www.collinscenter.org The Task Forces final report will be available online on Monday, however you can look at the draft report to get a pretty good idea of all topics covered. Also there are lots of backup info files including the TF’s mandate from the gov’nor.
Generally, the Washington Post and the New York Times have had a couple of good articles on the Duval County Election. Check out their archives. I haven’t cited them here because you need to be registered for the NY Times - it’s a freebie and well worth the effort to register.
f. Check out either http://www.myflorida.gov for the cite on phasing out the SecState position in Florida.
I hope that I have given you enough websites to provide you with the requested information. Please let me know if you need more, however this is a pretty good listing of what’s out there.
Of course, the lawsuit talks only about allegations. Yet I find it quite plausible given personal experiences with my family. The NAACP website is not the only place where this is discussed. There is a yet-to-be-published survey conducted by Jacksonville University [commissioned by WJCT public radio] which included questions about the November elections and broke the responses out by ethnic background. The majority of whites felt confidence in the results. Yet 20% of the African American respondents said that they personally encountered problems and a whopping 65% had no confidence at all. Given the history of race relations in the US, the enormous numbers of African American votes which were tossed out because they were deemed over-votes [tripled the normal rate] and the overwhelming negative response to the survey, I tend to think that there were not only technical problems, logistical problems, poor poll worker response problems, and special population problems [blind, handicapped, aged etc], but there were ignorant discriminatory practices which led to our civic rights being ignored.
and a :rolleyes: back atchya.
See, I knew that when you asked for cites, you weren’t going to believe them anyhow. There’s a federal civil rights investigation going on about these allegations.
If you were only going to accept a criminal conviction as ‘proof’ that they went on, then I suggest it’s disingenuous of you to ask for a cite in the first place. The statement was made that there were problems. You asked for proof. We’ve now submitted news stories about the civil rights investigation into those problems, and you’re going to ‘wait for proof’. uh huh. gotcha.
All last fall I got to hear about ‘those partisan vote counters’ who were skewing the election, and I kept on saying, you know, if the people there really believe that something fradulent is going on, where’s the investigation? And all I got in return was ‘well, they probably wouldn’t trust the local authorities’ (so what’s wrong with going to federal or state authorities) and I see those same old tired claims here "oh, those people counting those votes, we can’t trust ** them**.
In order to be taken seriously, you have to apply the same standards to your own arguments as you wish to apply to the others.
And re: the pastor’s quote, his civil rights were stripped away. I can see the similarity with losing rights of personhood, and frankly, it was his right to claim it.
If Bush had rigged the election, why didn’t he do a better job and win by many thousands of votes?
Also, don’t forget all the newly naturalized citizens who were pushed in to vote for Gore.
This is public record. It was brought out in the meeting held at Nova SW University by the Task Force on Elections. I believe State Representative Daryl Jones brought it up. The legal cost of re-establishing voting rights was discussed, but does not appear in the penultimate draft report.
The draft report recommends that the FL legislature review the issues related to the restoration of voting rights for exfelons with completed sentences.
This is a really interesting topic because Florida has one of the most conservative laws on the books concerning the voting rights of felons. I believe the majority of states, I might be wrong on this, re-establish voting rights AFTER sentence is served. Some even allow voting while in jail.
I’ll check this out.
Clarification on the SecState posting: this position will be appointed by the gov’nor in 2002 rather than being elected by the people. The Division of Elections may or may not be part of the SecState’s office after that. That is a decision of the FL legislature in the reorganization that was authorised by election in 1998. The FL Task Force on Elections recommends that the legislature should prohibit county and statewide elections officials from active in partisan politics while serving as an election official.
Had this been the fact in Nov 2000, Katherine Harris would have had to recuse herself.
Ohhh, there’s an “investigation” going on. Well, then. If there were any teeth to these allegations, why isn’t there more first-hand evidence? Please, if there really were roadblocks set-up around polling places to prevent black people from voting, where were the CNN cameras? the local-TV cameras, the Miami Herald reporters? If things happened as the allegations claim, it would have been a huge, can’t miss story for any news organization.
Oddly enough, I just happen to have here, brochures from every state detailing that specific info. (I work with felons for a living) In Florida:
If you are not incarcerated, but have a felony conviction from any state or a federal felony conviction, you cannot vote.
If you are incarcerated in the State of Florida and you hold a valid voter’s registration from another state that allows for convicted folks to vote while in prison, you can vote with an absentee ballot.
Post conviction, you can apply to the Governor’s office for a restoration of civil rights (if the conviction was federal or in another state) or a pardon, conditional pardon, restoration of civil rights if the conviction was in Florida.
Anyhow, more on that : here and and here
More on specific charges of police blockades and poll workers turning away minorities in Florida at the last election here, but of course, that too, will be dismissed by millroyj since it hasn’t gotten to the Supreme Court yet, and until it does, apparently any evidence of wrongdoing can be summarily dismissed.
kiffa nice working with you.
we did. several, and now you have:
and
News stories at the time are unavailable anymore. But they were there. Let me remind you that the investigation includes hearings under oath, so people would be risking perjury charges. That brings it up a bit more seriously. And of course, there were over a hundred witnesses called at the NCAAP hearings, but you naturally, won’t consider that to be eye witness testimony. You seem to be happy ignoring any evidence of wrongdoing, so please, don’t let information enter into your happy little world. keep you blinders on, you’re safe.
Willfull ignorance in the face of contrary information is what we try and avoid here.
There are plenty of website for you to check out Milroyj. I would be grateful if you would take the time to read some of the cites that wring and I have given you. Further I would greatly appreciate your feedback on your thoughts after reading some of the key articles. I personally would have to question your credibility if you continue to say that there is no evidence, no proof of shennanigans during the elections without doing a bit more reading.
The whole purpose of SDMB, especially Great Debates, is to look at the diversity of opinions on important issues. Citing sources is a key element to back up your arguments. It takes some time getting the right site [ie: factually reliable, indepth, clearly and concisely written by experts or those who have talked with the various experts]. This has been done for you.
You might also wish to take a bit of time and look at the US Election news in Yahoo if you decline to look at the websites that wring and I have provided you. Just reading the news story headlines will give you a sense that the violation of civil rights was not a one shot deal.
Can we please get back on track to the main issue currently being discussed: that the Florida election is still being debated, the count is not overwith [re Miami Herald court decision], there are several examples of civil rights complaints, ie: NAACP lawsuit and the US Civil Rights Commission’s investigation?
I look forward eagerly for your informed responses.
Splort! C’mon wring, now ya owe me a new keyboard 
At least we know where you’re coming from.
In this one
So, we don’t need to show newsreel footage of the police presence, the police are admitting that they were there in a ‘spur of the moment’ road and safety measure unauthroized by higher officers.
In this one it says there were over 400 complaints (aka witnesses), 300 pages of sworn testimony, and the point that poll workers in minority communities did not have access to cell phones and computers with which to check voter registrations.
Enough. as kiffa nicely put it, let’s get back to ‘where’s the vote count stand now?’
Been gone overnight, but I just had to respond here …
Never mind the fact that the Florida Legislature specifically provided for hand recounts, to be conducted by the three member board of elections, and subject to judicial review. So don’t go blaming the fact of hand recounts on the Gore campaign or anybody but the Florida Legislature.
And I notice that while wring and kiffa have provided a whole lot of cites backing up the assetions (which was never mine, btw) about voter intimidation, nobody has responded to my request for a cite on the election judge who gave every disputed ballot to Gore. Anybody? Please? 'Cause I’m about to chalk that one up as yet another Rush Limbaugh masturbation fantasy.
If Bush and the Bushites fixed the election, how come they didn’t do a better job?