Bush, you're not at a frat party, you dick

[Mtgman]

@John Mace

Bush is, among other things, socially inept. He doesn’t know the difference between a G8 Summit and and a backyard BBQ.

Here’s the big disconnect. Southern BBQs, especially with the “good ol’ boy” network in attendance, are indistinguishable from G8 Summits. What, you think the financial future of the free world is NOT decided at Texas BBQ’s? It has been for decades.

@John Mace

He always acts like he’s at the BBQ, so what seems totally out of place to us just seems “normal” to him. Maybe he’s aware of the difference but wants to make a point that his style is the BBQ style. Well, that can work very well in a one-on-one situation when a leader is visiting the US, but not in the context of this meeting.

Nonsense. BBQ’s have been the setting for big dollar business wheeling and dealing in Texas forever. Good Ol’ Boys will get together, the wimminfolk will look purty, and the hagglin will commense. At the end of it Ken Lay gets a couple dozen juicy contracts to provide electric service, Tom DeLay gets some more campaign contributions, and Haliburton locks in another no-bid contract for an upcoming war.

Don’t kid yourself. The BBQ is the place it happens. Those conference rooms are just where they have to sit for a while to make it look “proper” for the cameras and people who think financial decisions are somehow better if reached while sitting in uncomfortable chairs in windowless rooms and wearing suits.

Lots of professions are like this. Ever heard the old saw about lawyers, “never ask a question you don’t already know the answer to”? Don’t kid yourself. They knew what was what before they put on those suits and stepped into the courtroom. The G8 summit is window-dressing. The real decisions were made at a much lower profile, and probably far more casual, meeting.

Enjoy,
Steven

[John_Mace]

@Mtgman

Here’s the big disconnect. Southern BBQs, especially with the “good ol’ boy” network in attendance, are indistinguishable from G8 Summits. What, you think the financial future of the free world is NOT decided at Texas BBQ’s? It has been for decades. Nonsense. BBQ’s have been the setting for big dollar business wheeling and dealing in Texas forever. Good Ol’ Boys will get together, the wimminfolk will look purty, and the hagglin will commense. At the end of it Ken Lay gets a couple dozen juicy contracts to provide electric service, Tom DeLay gets some more campaign contributions, and Haliburton locks in another no-bid contract for an upcoming war.

That’s completely orthogonal to what we’re talking about. Of course the big deals are made off camera, but that doesn’t mean one should always behave as if one is off camera.

[you_with_the_face]

@John Mace

That’s completely orthogonal to what we’re talking about. Of course the big deals are made off camera, but that doesn’t mean one should always behave as if one is off camera.

I think you’re being whooshed, dawg.

[John_Mace]

@you with the face

I think you’re being whooshed, dawg.

I **hate **it when that happens…

[Mtgman]

I would have thought the first two sentences were enough of a giveaway, but I guess not.

Enjoy,
Steven

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Mtgman

I would have thought the first two sentences were enough of a giveaway, but I guess not.

Enjoy,
Steven

Well, having just watched Syriana, I wasn’t sure either.

[Scylla]

@Zoe

Diplomatic tradition suggests that the President of the United States should behave with something a cut above basic primate gestures.

No it doesn’t. Diplomatic tradition suggest things like banging your shoe on the table.

Diplomacy is simply a means for allowing large groups to have representatives make primate gestures on behalf of the large group

[Squink]

@Scylla

No it doesn’t. Diplomatic tradition suggest things like banging your shoe on the table.

Bush as Khruschev lite?
I guess Nikita is a better fit than Truman.

[Scylla]

@RTFirefly

Well, there’s your problem. Where’d you get the idea that I thought that?

The same way you do.

I’m on record (over and over and over again) as thinking Bush and his team are actually quite good at those things they care about, but that there’s a rather precipitous drop-off once they get away from the stuff that matters to them.

You see, you read minds and say what Bush thinks. I read your mind and say what you think. If you can arbitrarily attribute motivations to Bush, by what rationale do you take offense if I do the same to you?

What matters to them: (1) shoveling money and tax breaks to rich people and big or well-connected corporations and industries; and (2) maintaining and increasing their political power, so that they can keep doing (1) into the indefinite future.

You see. You just did it again. You told me what they think. If you can make that up, than why can’t I make up what you think?

See above. I didn’t say he was stupid; I said he doesn’t care anymore.

And I say you that you deeply desire to pack oatmeal up a goat’s butt.

My attribution of your motivation is as well-founded as yours of Bush’s

And gets people pissed at you. Which is fine until everybody decides they’ve had enough. And since this is the G-8 and not a frat party, when they’ve had enough it won’t just be Bush’s problem; it’ll be ours.

Well, perhaps to your way of thinking the worst thing that can happen is to piss somebody off. Frankly, I don’t sweat it so much. More importantly, I naturally don’t trust people who are especially concerned about pissing other people off.

My experience is that the sort of person who is always worrying about what you are going to think about what they say is pretty insecure, unlikely to level with you, and is perhaps afraid of showing what they really think because they have good reason to be afraid.

In order to be honest and communicate and get things done, you can’t be afraid of pissing people off a little bit.

I’m generally in favor of pissing people off a little bit, doing things out of sequence, shaking things up a little bit, and knocking people outside of their comfort zone so that you get a genuine reaction.

Allow me to elaborate. Bush made a gesture at the edge and maybe over the edge of generally acceptable social protocol. It’s not like it’s so far over the line or so unusual that one can make a big deal about it. If one does make a big deal about it one is making a bigger faux pas than the actual incident.

So, he’s safe in making the gesture.

He gained something by making this gesture. He got a genuine reaction. This lady doesn’t like him. This lady doesn’t trust him. This lady doesn’t feel friendly towards him. This lady doesn’t want to be familiar with him.

Let’s say you generally don’t like such gestures. Nevertheless if somebody you like and trust and think highly of does that, you will not react strongly. You will generally let it go. You will tend to interpret it as a friendly gesture.

Bush elicited her true feelings. She is a professionally trained diplomat. Her job is to hide her true feelings. Her job is to promote her country’s agenda. From her reaction we can ascertain that either she thinks Bush is generally skeevy, or else she is feeling antagonist to him. She does not recognize him as someone friendly or familiar and welcome. She is not comfortable being touched by him in a friendly way. Touching is important. It’s why we have the ritual of shaking hands. We can convey a lot of meaning and emotional content with contact. We are wired that way. We respond to it involuntarily.

Bush now has information. She doesn’t like him, or, she may have to promote an agenda with which she anticipates will be antagonistic to him.

Bush has not “alienated” her. He has gotten her to express that he is “alien” and unwelcome to her.

You may or may not believe that Bush is capable of doing this and exploiting the information. You may think that it is a thoughtless innapropriate gesture. But, I think Bush is cunning, and an operator and is very good at this kind of thing.

Most politicians are.

[Onomatopoeia]

@Bippy the Beardless

Is that Italian female porn star politician still going? Perhapse we can get her to give GWB a lap dance at the next big summit. It would probably do everyone some good.

Hah! That was Ciccolina (or however-the-heck you spell that). She must be old as dirt now.

[Excalibre]

@Scylla

And I say you that you deeply desire to pack oatmeal up a goat’s butt.

And now we’re reduced to childishly insulting those who don’t share our opinions. :rolleyes:

Well, perhaps to your way of thinking the worst thing that can happen is to piss somebody off. Frankly, I don’t sweat it so much. More importantly, I naturally don’t trust people who are especially concerned about pissing other people off.

Then perhaps I overrated your intelligence. If you don’t think that it’s worth attempting to be at least civil with one of the few leaders of important allies who likes us, then you must have caught that fratboy bravado that Bush has.

It’s one thing to make others angry in the process of doing the right thing. It’s another thing to compromise an important head of government’s tenuous warmth towards our country when most of her countrymen are likely pressuring her to drop it - especially when all that’s gained from it is a brief grope. If you think that was a rational diplomatic move, you simply don’t have the ability to grasp what’s in our country’s interests.

My experience is that the sort of person who is always worrying about what you are going to think about what they say is pretty insecure, unlikely to level with you, and is perhaps afraid of showing what they really think because they have good reason to be afraid.

And the person who deliberately pisses off people whose opinions count? Would you grab your boss, knowing she wouldn’t like it? Do you think your show of “security” would help you? How about an acquaintance you were asking a favor from? You don’t piss off people whose help you may need.

If you’re trying to defend pissing people off for no reason, then you’re either desperately grasping at straws or simply not capable of understanding this situation from any rational point of view. It’s in the United States’ interest to have friends around the world. Bush might not be able to grasp that - though you’d think he would have figured it out, what with the difficulties faced in building his “Coalition of the Willing”. If neither you nor he understands that, then clearly you’re both a lot dumber than I thought.

In order to be honest and communicate and get things done, you can’t be afraid of pissing people off a little bit.

What did his shoulder rub communicate? What did it get done?

I’m generally in favor of pissing people off a little bit, doing things out of sequence, shaking things up a little bit, and knocking people outside of their comfort zone so that you get a genuine reaction.

If you go around pissing people off for no reason, then you’re a moron. President Bush certainly is a moron, so it’s no shock that he would do that. You shouldn’t try to emulate him. Neither of you makes a convincing cowboy.

He gained something by making this gesture. He got a genuine reaction. This lady doesn’t like him. This lady doesn’t trust him. This lady doesn’t feel friendly towards him. This lady doesn’t want to be familiar with him.

Actually, as has been discussed above, Angela Merkel is one of the few foreign leaders who is friendly with Bush. If he managed to put her off, that’s not accomplishing anything.

Bush elicited her true feelings. She is a professionally trained diplomat. Her job is to hide her true feelings. Her job is to promote her country’s agenda. From her reaction we can ascertain that either she thinks Bush is generally skeevy, or else she is feeling antagonist to him.

She most likely feels that way now. If you think that it’s impossible that this is the result of what he did, then you’re tremendously confused about how politics works.

You may or may not believe that Bush is capable of doing this and exploiting the information. You may think that it is a thoughtless innapropriate gesture. But, I think Bush is cunning, and an operator and is very good at this kind of thing.

Most politicians are.

The evidence has not suggested that he is so far. Your explanation amounts to - what? Maybe pissing off other world leaders is useful? Sorry, kid, it doesn’t work. You may look at his cowboy diplomacy as something “cunning”, but the only explanation you can come up with for it is the most ridiculously strained effort I’ve ever heard.

Whereas the other explanation makes sense. Bush is incompetent at diplomacy. Much like he was incompetent and ran every business he ever operated into the ground. Much like he damaged our economy, involved us in an unending war, and ran up historical deficit highs. You think that - appearance to the contrary - he’s secretly incredibly skilled at diplomacy? Even when the evidence contradicts you?

You’re a True Believer, Scylla. Let’s hope your rational mind wakes up one day.

[Gorsnak]

@Scylla

He gained something by making this gesture. He got a genuine reaction. This lady doesn’t like him. This lady doesn’t trust him. This lady doesn’t feel friendly towards him. This lady doesn’t want to be familiar with him.

Let’s say you generally don’t like such gestures. Nevertheless if somebody you like and trust and think highly of does that, you will not react strongly. You will generally let it go. You will tend to interpret it as a friendly gesture.

Bush elicited her true feelings. She is a professionally trained diplomat. Her job is to hide her true feelings. Her job is to promote her country’s agenda. From her reaction we can ascertain that either she thinks Bush is generally skeevy, or else she is feeling antagonist to him. She does not recognize him as someone friendly or familiar and welcome. She is not comfortable being touched by him in a friendly way. Touching is important. It’s why we have the ritual of shaking hands. We can convey a lot of meaning and emotional content with contact. We are wired that way. We respond to it involuntarily.

Bush now has information. She doesn’t like him, or, she may have to promote an agenda with which she anticipates will be antagonistic to him.

Bush has not “alienated” her. He has gotten her to express that he is “alien” and unwelcome to her.

You may or may not believe that Bush is capable of doing this and exploiting the information. You may think that it is a thoughtless innapropriate gesture. But, I think Bush is cunning, and an operator and is very good at this kind of thing.

Most politicians are.

Do you honestly believe that crap? What a complete load of bullshit. Either you’re a complete moron, or you must think everyone else here is. She reacted as she did because her personal space was bizarrely and unexpectedly invaded. She might actually like him, for all that reaction showed. Plenty of people I like could elicit that same reaction from me by doing the exact same thing.

[John_Mace]

@Scylla

He gained something by making this gesture. He got a genuine reaction. This lady doesn’t like him. This lady doesn’t trust him. This lady doesn’t feel friendly towards him. This lady doesn’t want to be familiar with him.

That’s ridiculous. She probably never had that done to her before and didn’t know how to react. The whole thing took about 1 second. I think most people would’ve reacted the same way in that situation-- I know I would’ve.

[Sublight]

@Gorsnak

Do you honestly believe that crap? What a complete load of bullshit. Either you’re a complete moron, or you must think everyone else here is. She reacted as she did because her personal space was bizarrely and unexpectedly invaded. She might actually like him, for all that reaction showed. Plenty of people I like could elicit that same reaction from me by doing the exact same thing.

This (the crap, and the post advocating it) is a perfect example of the BSD principle, which is particularly common among stock brokers, commodity traders and similar professions (which I believe Scylla is or once was in). The idea is that to get ahead and succeed, you must establish yourself as the BSD, or Big Swinging Dick. To do this, you piss on (and piss off) everyone else in the room to cow them into submitting to your authority. Never compromise, never apologize, never pass up a chance to get in a dig and assert yourself as the alpha male. Allies are people who do what you tell them, and anyone who doesn’t is fair game.

Some people (like the former traders I used to work with) can turn it off and behave like pleasant, civilized human beings. Some people can’t, or don’t want to, and instead try to claim that ‘this is how the world works’.

Keep the BSD principle in mind when reading Scylla’s posts, and much of what he says vanishes in a puff of hot air. It’s why he’s so quick to pepper his posts with insults: like he says Bush is doing with the Chancellor, he’s trying to make you uncomfortable. If he gets you uncomfortable enough to lose your temper, he wins the argument in his mind and asserts his position as the BSD.

[mhendo]

@Scylla

Allow me to elaborate. Bush made a gesture at the edge and maybe over the edge of generally acceptable social protocol. It’s not like it’s so far over the line or so unusual that one can make a big deal about it. If one does make a big deal about it one is making a bigger faux pas than the actual incident.

So, he’s safe in making the gesture.

He gained something by making this gesture. He got a genuine reaction. This lady doesn’t like him. This lady doesn’t trust him. This lady doesn’t feel friendly towards him. This lady doesn’t want to be familiar with him.

Let’s say you generally don’t like such gestures. Nevertheless if somebody you like and trust and think highly of does that, you will not react strongly. You will generally let it go. You will tend to interpret it as a friendly gesture.

Bush elicited her true feelings. She is a professionally trained diplomat. Her job is to hide her true feelings. Her job is to promote her country’s agenda. From her reaction we can ascertain that either she thinks Bush is generally skeevy, or else she is feeling antagonist to him. She does not recognize him as someone friendly or familiar and welcome. She is not comfortable being touched by him in a friendly way. Touching is important. It’s why we have the ritual of shaking hands. We can convey a lot of meaning and emotional content with contact. We are wired that way. We respond to it involuntarily.

Bush now has information. She doesn’t like him, or, she may have to promote an agenda with which she anticipates will be antagonistic to him.

Bush has not “alienated” her. He has gotten her to express that he is “alien” and unwelcome to her.

This is humor, right? Some sort of irony so subtle that only the greatest comedic minds of the century can grasp it?

You aren’t seriously stupid enough to believe this shit, are you?

[BobLibDem]

@Scylla

So, he’s safe in making the gesture.

He gained something by making this gesture. He got a genuine reaction. This lady doesn’t like him. This lady doesn’t trust him. This lady doesn’t feel friendly towards him. This lady doesn’t want to be familiar with him.

Congratulations! That was a very good audition for lead voice in the Bush Apologist Choir. We still have more voices to hear but this was an extremely impressive performance.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@Scylla

Allow me to elaborate. Bush made a gesture at the edge and maybe over the edge of generally acceptable social protocol. It’s not like it’s so far over the line or so unusual that one can make a big deal about it. If one does make a big deal about it one is making a bigger faux pas than the actual incident.

So, he’s safe in making the gesture.

He gained something by making this gesture. He got a genuine reaction. This lady doesn’t like him. This lady doesn’t trust him. This lady doesn’t feel friendly towards him. This lady doesn’t want to be familiar with him.

Oh yes, I can see it!

I met my wife when we both ended up working in a field office. I really liked her but wasn’t sure how far I could go. One day without really thinking about it, I gave her a tap on the butt as she was bent over a copy machine. She jumped turned around and smiled “Don’t do that again”. I knew right then and there that I had a good chance to take our relationship to the next level.

[matt_mcl]

@Excalibre

It doesn’t help that some “fancy” - i.e. revoltingly tacky - eating establishments try to deliberately confound diners by placing far more silverware that could ever conceivably be necessary at the place setting. I’ve heard it’s particularly rampant on cruise ships. Since we don’t eat seven course meals anymore, it’s not necessary to have seven forks on the table.

Even if we do, the extra flatware should be brought in with the subsequent courses, as the plates (and used flatware) are cleared. No more than three forks should adjoin the plate at any time; IMHO, fewer if possible, as otherwise it looks like you are just trying to flaunt your silverware.

[hawthorne]

Scylla
["] I’m just a friendly country boy" gesture that intimidates, dominates, and keeps everybody else off balance. […] Personally, I just try to wear a snazzy tie.

So you’ve given away electric shocks and holding people down in swimming pools? That’s some manly tie.

[Revenant_Threshold]

Was Bush smart to use this gesture to elicit her true feelings? If that’s what he was going for, yes, since it worked. Was Bush smart to have absolutely no clue as to her feelings without deliberatly being creepy? No. Was Bush smart to use a gesture that would annoy someone in order to find out whether he annoyed them? No. Was Bush smart to deliberatly annoy someone who he needs to be cultivating good relationships with? No.

I don’t think you’ve got the right idea here, Scylla, but even if you have, overall it’s a really foolish move to make.