Buying stolen goods...

In My Humble Opinion
61

Moonshine,
Tsk tsk yourself. :slight_smile:

You posted ‘I certainly don’t think they (receiving stolen goods / burglary) are comparable on any scale of “wrongness”.’

I think most burglary (TV, video, computers, jewellery, guns, cars) is done in the expectation of fencing the goods. It’s practically a conspiracy!

You didn’t comment on my tougher comparison ‘Which would you rather happen: your home gets robbed or your bank gets robbed?’. (My point is that crime affects people more if it’s personal, not just because more money is taken).

You posted ‘Skummet didn’t ask to be kicked around the Board and called childish names by people who have been here long enough to know better.’

I agree, but surely it was Sailor (who understandably has strong feelings because he’s been burgled) who called Skummet names? You imply I was calling him a psychopath. Certainly not. Read the context of my post:

‘And saying someone can do something that wasn’t so wrong TO THEM is a dangerous slope. By all means protest democratically against laws you think are unjust. But remember that one definition of psychopath is ‘chronic mental disorder, especially with abnormal or violent social behaviour’…’

I accept I could have spelt it out better, but my point was the following sequence:

  1. it’s unlawful - but it doesn’t seem wrong to me
  2. I won’t protest against it - I’ll just break the law
  3. I’ll break any law I want…

is something best avoided.

I draw your attention to some of my postings to Skummet:

‘I feel there’s a moral person inside you’
‘Some people would say you’re at heart a decent chap, who knows he did a bad thing, and is desperately seeking reassurance’
‘Yes, and now your conscience and basic decency has come thru’
‘I don’t know if you have a family, or intend to, but think about being able to tell your kids the true stories of how honest you were. They’ll look up to you, and you’ll feel good for the rest of your life’.

Take that, Skummet! :stuck_out_tongue:

JimmyNipples,

I posted 'Let’s try your defence in court: ‘I bought this stuff at an incredibly cheap price. I got no receipt, no manual, no warranty. The guy who sold it didn’t offer any refunds (actually he didn’t give me his name) and insisted I paid cash. Of course I had NO IDEA it was stolen.’

You replied ‘How about this defence…This guy sold me a DVD player for 75 bux. He said he was going thru a messy divorce and needed cash.
Or…a friend of mine just got married. He got 3 microwaves!!! He just GAVE one to me…I need some cash more than I need a microwave…I’ll sell it to ya for 50 bux.’

Ingenious stuff. But don’t you have your suspicions? After all, burglars use these stories routinely or, depressingly, they just offer it cheap. In England, to say ‘it fell off the back of a lorry’ means ‘it’s stolen.’

You posted ‘I haven’t purchased any stolen items…to my knowledge…but buying things without receipts or a warranty happens daily. Garage sales, from classified ads and so on.’

Agreed, but there’s usually a difference between a reputable secondhand price (accompanied by some documentation), and a ‘stolen’ price.

You posted ‘Skummet…you are breaking the law and taking risk doing it…but not much of a risk…and it isn’t much of a law.’

I think it is an useful law. Are you saying we should abolish it? (Officer, that man’s driving my stolen car! Sorry, Sir, he paid the thief $1 for it, so that makes it his…)

62

Hey, where the hell did my laptop go?

63

Moonshine,

presumably your missing laptop had your answers to my questions! :wink:

64

"You didn’t comment on my tougher comparison ‘Which would you rather happen: your home gets robbed or your bank gets robbed?’.(My point is that crime affects people more if it’s personal, not just because more money is taken). " Yup, but so what?

“…but surely it was Sailor…who called Skummet names?” Yup, I was making a more general comment on Skummet getting the run around by posters taking a very high moral road in general when these things aren’t black and white at all. If they were we wouldn’t be having this discussion at all. However, seeing what Skummet is posting in other threads I am going to bail out and leave him to his own devices now.

65

Moonshine,

You agreed that you would rather your bank gets robbed than your home, and asked ‘Yup, but so what?’.

Well I assume you’re against bank robbery :slight_smile: , so why doesn’t the chain of logic:

  • burglary is very bad (because it affects you personally)
  • receiving stolen goods strongly encourages burglary
  • therefore receiving stolen goods is bad
    convince you?

You posted ‘I was making a more general comment on Skummet getting the run around by posters taking a very high moral road’

Hey, why can’t I have strong morals?

Further ‘in general…these things aren’t black and white at all. If they were we wouldn’t be having this discussion’.

True, that’s what the board is about. :smiley: But I hope to persuade you this is morally and socially clear.

And ‘However, seeing what Skummet is posting in other threads I am going to bail out and leave him to his own devices now.’

Well you could still debate with me. Your ‘stolen laptop’ post was funny :cool:

66

I’m still here, and still appreciating that you stood up for me Moonshine… but I’m finding it extremely hard discussing this with Glee for the simple reason that… well… he’s right in most of the things he says.
I mean this is a guy to whom it IS black and white and he just doesn’t do anything wrong. I didn’t think people like that excisted… surely everyone out there has bent the law just a little to their favor once in a while… well everyone except glee I guess… I must say I admire you for living that way glee, and it makes it damn hard to argue with you about this. Ofcourse it doesnt help not having this discussion in my native language, but its hardly an excuse.

However, the rest of posters here seems to see it as a black and white thing too… you either follow the law 100% or youre a no good criminal who deserves to be locked up. Thank god the real world isnt like that… wed all be in prison! I really thought people would have a more of a discussion about this and not just go… “what you did was wrong, now fry”

67

Skümmet,

you posted ‘but I’m finding it extremely hard discussing this with Glee for the simple reason that… well… he’s right in most of the things he says.’

Thank you. :cool:
Wait a minute - what aren’t I right about?!

Further ‘I mean this is a guy to whom it IS black and white and he just doesn’t do anything wrong. I didn’t think people like that existed… surely everyone out there has bent the law just a little to their favor once in a while…’

Ok, because you’re polite I’ll admit to a crime. :eek:

I was about 13. My school friends and I used to buy sweets on the way home. Well, I’d buy - they’d shoplift. After a while they caught on I wasn’t ‘joining in’ and started teasing me (‘you’re a coward’, ‘it’s brave to do it’, ‘we won’t like you unless you do’ etc.).
This peer group pressure is incredibly strong, especially to a teenager. So I stole a sweet (worth £0.01).
That night I cried at bedtime and told my parents about it. They suggested I put the money on the counter the next day. So I did. I’ve never stolen since - and feel good about it. :smiley:

And ‘I must say I admire you for living that way glee, and it makes it damn hard to argue with you about this.’

Try honesty - you too can feel good! (and you posted a fine example earlier).

You posted ‘Of course it doesn’t help not having this discussion in my native language, but it’s hardly an excuse.’

You won’t get criticism from me about your spelling or grammar. My foreign languages are pathetic, and this shows you’re an educated person.

Further ‘However, the rest of posters here seem to see it as a black and white thing too… you either follow the law 100% or you’re a no good criminal who deserves to be locked up. Thank god the real world isn’t like that… we’d all be in prison! I really thought people would have a more of a discussion about this’.

Well if you’ve been burgled, you tend to be naturally resentful of people who post that they’ve received stolen goods.
I think it’s worth trying to be a decent member of society, even in the small things (e.g. don’t drop litter). I do think that people fail to realise the full significance of buying stolen property.
Also, sophisticated people use euphemisms (presumably because they know it’s wrong really). Have a look at the thread ‘Illegal software’ for a long list of examples.

Oh, and give the stolen laptop back! :frowning:
(I’m tempted to make that my signature…)

68

“Also, sophisticated people use euphemisms (presumably because they know it’s wrong really). Have a look at the thread ‘Illegal software’ for a long list of examples.”

Lol… it actually so happens that the thread in question was started by my girl… it was her clever scheme tomake all the people who slated me in this thread admit to how bad they really were and that they too were no better than a petty theif by stealing software… or something to that extent… ofcourse then you go there and post you buy 3 copies of the same game when you want to play multiplayer games… doh! :wink:

She didnt want me to let people know she was my girl coz the this whole plan of hers wouldnt work… but since it really didnt reveal any of the people who slated me as major illegal software distributors i guess we might aswell “come clean” now… it did however turn into quite an interesting debate :slight_smile:

I didnt even know my gurl was reading this board, but the other day she mailed me and said she was sorry that people were reacting like this and that she had posted that thread and her plan and all to “defend me” how sweet is that!!! :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: Who needs stolen laptops with a girl like that :slight_smile: :wink: :slight_smile:

69

Skummet,

You have a fine girlfriend!

But note how being honest AT ALL TIMES means that you’re never exposed as a hypocrite.

Ok, new idea:

Give the laptop back, or I’ll steal your girlfriend! :stuck_out_tongue:

P.S.

Pheebee,

nice thread. Can’t you make him give the laptop back?

Regards,

glee

70

Actually i told her if she really really wanted me to… id give it back… she didnt want me to… but yes… she could make me give it back.

lol… you stealing her? i dont see that happening… you remind her of this guy she really really used to… well hate is such a strong word… shall we say dislike…
you dont go by the name of Sean in real life by any chance do you? and happen to be from Sacramento?

71

Nobody here thinks it is a black and white issue. We all understand there is a difference between speeding and murder and society recognizes it too by prescribing different punishments. Pirating software is not the same as stealing a laptop. They are both bad but in different degrees. As has already been explained, stealing a laptop usually causes a huge disruption in the life of the rightful owner and that makes it much worse than making an illegal copy of a song.

The point we are trying to make is that there is a line, which may be a bit hazy between what is and what is not acceptable. The law here is you must separate recyclabes. If you do not do it I guess you are not absolutely evil but you are definitely selfish as you cannot be bothered to think about others. Maybe I will not stop talking to you but you would definitely lose in my scale of consideration.

Then there are things that are well beyond that line, like murder. The line may be in different places for different people but, for me, stealing laptops is way beyond what is acceptable. I would not associate with people who did it or who thought it was OK to do it. If you were caught and taken to jail I would not feel sorry for you. I do feel sorry for the rightful owner though.

I would never do a thing like that because of the shame I would put on the people who surround me. They would not do it to me and I would not do it to them. Obviously, if you are surrounded by people who think it is OK to steal, then you don’t have to worry about shaming them. I was lucky enough to have a better family who taught me better. I know my father would never have shamed me by doing something like that and I know I would never shame him by doing something like that.

Obviously for you the line is much father away so that stealing laptops is acceptable. If it is OK for you to decide where the line of what is acceptable lies, then others are entitled to do it as well. If one day you or your girlfriend are victims of theft or a violent crime, just think that the criminal thought there was nothing wrong with what he was doing. That ought to make you feel better.

72

“Pirating software is not the same as stealing a laptop.”

Just like buying a stolen laptop is not the same as stealing a laptop.

73

actually Skummet has a point. the honesty “continuum” as it were goes from hienous acts (Charles Manson, Hitler, name your favorite despot here) to some one who won’t pick up a penny off the ground on the basis that it isn’t theirs.

I think you were surprised, though, at how few people here put their own honesty hovering over the “I’d buy something stolen if it was a good enough deal”.

However. It is my humble opinion that you did feel some guilt. otherwise, I doubt that you’d have posted the question to try and find out how many of us admitted we’d done it.

I prefer to live my life honestly, and prefer to be around people who do the same. That’s all I can say. (except give the laptop back dude) :wink:

74

Skümmet,

You posted 'Actually I told her if she really really wanted me to… I’d give it back ( :slight_smile: )… she didn’t want me to ( :frowning: )… but yes… she could make me give it back.

…you (glee) stealing her? I don’t see that happening… you remind her of this guy she really really used to… well hate is such a strong word… shall we say dislike…
you don’t go by the name of Sean in real life by any chance do you? and happen to be from Sacramento?’

No and no.

Finally ‘…Just like buying a stolen laptop is not the same as stealing a laptop.’

Yes (patiently) it is. Why do you think the guy stole the laptop? To sell it to a fellow criminal - oh, that’s you :wally

75

It was already stolen when i bought it, if i didnt buy it it would still have been stolen. Therefore I didnt steal it!

Its not like i went to the guy and asked him to go steal me a laptop or anything like that.
The guy had this laptop he was selling for a friend… i figure the friend was the theif and didnt feel like asking many questions… then again it may have changed hands many times before me… anywho thats besides the point.
The guy with the laptop asked his brother if he knew anyone who might be interested… his brother came and asked me if i might be intereseted… it just so happened that i WAS infact interested… so i met up with the brother and bought the laptop. If i hadnt, it would still be sitting on his desk, being just as stolen as it is now… so no i didnt steal it and didnt cause the buglary so i dont see it as me being a theif.

76

Skümmet,

you posted ‘It was already stolen when I bought it, if i didnt buy it it would still have been stolen. Therefore I didnt steal it!’

Pathetic.

Why do you think ‘The guy with the laptop asked his brother if he knew anyone who might be interested’?
Because he wanted to SELL the laptop - THAT’S why he stole it.

Further ‘Its not like i went to the guy and asked him to go steal me a laptop or anything like that.’

Oh, would THAT be a crime? :rolleyes: but you won’t have physically stolen it, will you :wally

I’ll try one last example, because I now think you’re too mixed up to sort out.

You see a mugger beating up an old lady. You watch till it’s over (because you know the mugger, and you don’t want to ‘betray’ his trust). He takes her purse, but drops some money. You take that money. Of course, you’re not a criminal because as you would say ‘so no i didnt attack her and didnt cause the mugging so i dont see it as me being a criminal’.

77

To answer the original question,

Nope, not me.

How can it be OK to profit from the misfortune of others, regardless of how great a deal you are getting? How can this be muddied in the slightest bit by “shades of gray”? By buying stolen property you are the one who is rewarding the thief. Who cares if someone else might get the great deal if you don’t–that doesn’t absolve you from the personal responsibility for an unethical and antisocial act.

Yep.

78

For me the line is definately still grey here. I don’t agree that the cause of theft is being able to sell something on. I had a mini-disk player stolen from me on a train not so long ago, and I imagine that it was stolen for personal use rather than for selling it on. Sure a lot of theft may be for that reason (and most burglary), but that still doesn’t make buying something stolen the same as stealing it. That would be like asking your SO to go to the supermarket for something and on the way he/she negligently causes an accident. That accident isn’t your fault just because you are the reason for the trip in the first place.

How about we muddy the waters in a different way. Instead of comparing buying stolen goods to other crimes, what about if it was something else that had been stolen, or what about if the offending item has been lifted from the back of a Walmart rather than hitting an old lady over the head for it? Sure they’re all wrong etc etc yawn, but would anybody here draw a line and lean towards one more than the other?

Lets say you suspected that this particular laptop was one that a firm was going to throw out, but wouldn’t give to its employees because then the firm would have to book a taxable benefit to that employee and the paper work is just too much. So the Man gives your buddy a nudge and a wink and says something like “I can’t give you this old laptop because it would be against the rules, but I’m going to be leaving them all in Room 101 to await collection by our crack Laptop Disposal Unit.” Lo and behold this laptop materialises in your buddy’s car and he cuts you a deal because he already has a laptop. This is clearly theft because your buddy wasn’t supposed to take it and indeed he could get fired for stealing company property, and without a doubt you know that you are buying stolen property

So, the question here is: no harm no foul or is theft always theft? This one should be pretty easy for you Glee. Since it was me that took part in said escapade my position is pretty clear too.

I know this sounds like a dumbass situation, but exactly that happened to me a number of years age and I was the “buddy” who couldn’t bear to see a perfectly good laptop being thrown out and so salvaged it for a friend. (I didn’t charge him though, it was a 80486 after all and I have my standards).

I still want my laptop back Skummet, don’t make me come over there with Glee and Sailor…

79

Moonshine,

I knew you were worth debating. :slight_smile:

You posted ‘I don’t agree that the cause of theft is being able to sell something on. I had a mini-disk player stolen from me on a train not so long ago, and I imagine that it was stolen for personal use rather than for selling it on. Sure a lot of theft may be for that reason (and most burglary)…’

Oh dear, an easy one to start. You don’t agree about something - but you admit it 2 sentences later!

Further ‘…but that still doesn’t make buying something stolen the same as stealing it. That would be like asking your SO to go to the supermarket for something and on the way he/she negligently causes an accident. That accident isn’t your fault just because you are the reason for the trip in the first place.’

The difference is that it’s legal to ask your SO to go shopping. (thinks about PC type joke - turns it down)
When you buy what you know are stolen goods, you are effectively in a conspiracy.
SDMB lawyers, hear my call!
The police find you in possession of a stolen laptop. You bought it cheap off a stranger (who actually stole it)…
Is there a charge? (receiving stolen goods?).
What would be a good defence?
Can you expect to get your money back, or keep the laptop?

You posted ‘How about we muddy the waters in a different way. Instead of comparing buying stolen goods to other crimes, what about if it was something else that had been stolen, or what about if the offending item has been lifted from the back of a Walmart rather than hitting an old lady over the head for it?’

OK, even the courts treat you differently. It depends if you’re a regular offender, whether you used violence etc.

And ‘Sure they’re all wrong etc etc yawn…’

My moral code says it’s not boring. I believe in slippery slopes. Once you dip a toe into stealing, I think it becomes easier to justify the next step.

Next ‘Let’s say you suspected that this particular laptop was one that a firm was going to throw out, but wouldn’t give to its employees because then the firm would have to book a taxable benefit to that employee and the paper work is just too much.’

So you would be completely legal if someone did some paperwork and you paid a little tax…

Continued ‘So the Man gives your buddy a nudge and a wink and says something like “I can’t give you this old laptop because it would be against the rules, but I’m going to be leaving them all in Room 101 to await collection by our crack Laptop Disposal Unit.” Lo and behold this laptop materialises in your buddy’s car and he cuts you a deal because he already has a laptop. This is clearly theft because your buddy wasn’t supposed to take it and indeed he could get fired for stealing company property, and without a doubt you know that you are buying stolen property’.

First, yet another euphemism ‘this laptop materialises in your buddy’s car’…

Second you state that both of you are committing a crime. He’s avoiding some paperwork, you’re avoiding a tiny payment.
You say ‘no harm no foul’. Another euphemism! Are you going to go to your buddy’s industrial tribunal and say he shouldn’t be fired, for that reason?
Companies tend to warn / get rid of employees who commit petty theft. Presumably they agree with me that it can lead to more serious offences.

You posted ‘I know this sounds like a dumbass situation, but exactly that happened to me a number of years age and I was the “buddy” who couldn’t bear to see a perfectly good laptop being thrown out and so salvaged it for a friend. (I didn’t charge him though, it was a 80486 after all and I have my standards).’

I completely agree with your initial feelings. This has happened to me too (several times, I work in computing). What a waste of a decent secondhand computer.
My solution:

  • offer to do the paperwork. It doesn’t take long, just keep the auditors happy.
  • I gave the first one to a local school
  • I bought the second one (dirt cheap) and sold it to my friend (I would have given it to him, but he insisted. Then he bought a new motherboard etc).

Finally ‘I still want my laptop back Skummet, don’t make me come over there with Glee and Sailor…’

Amen to that!

80

** glee ** happy to lend a hand here

IANAL but I work with exoffenders. Police find you in possession? 1. The item is ALWAYS confiscated. 2. You NEVER get your money back. 3. Criminal charges (at least “possession of stolen property”) are likely. 4. Defense (and not a good one) “I didn’t know it was stolen”. you would have to show that you purchased it from some one who seemed likely to have been the original owner. So, the lack of documentation, reciepts, etc. will go a long way towards proving the prosecution case.