I think it is nice that people that knew Maggie well enough judged that her spawn should be kept out of any gene pool. If only more people would recognize the need.
This thread has been interesting. I’ve been thinking about why this bothers me so much, since I believe every woman has a right to an abortion, and I think I feel similarly to Freudian Slit. It just doesn’t seem like something I’d be comfortable advertising, or having others advertise to me. I DON’T think it’s something that people need to be ashamed of, but at the same time, it seems TMI, unless it’s a close friend.
And while I don’t think of an abortion as anything close to murder, for me it would be a pretty solemn decision. I just can’t equate it with a party in my mind. But I suppose no two women are going to feel the same about it. If one woman feels like throwing a party about it, more power to her, I guess. I can’t pretend to understand the mindset, but I’ve decided it’s not my place to judge, anyway.
I’m not ready to proclaim this as a Liberation and all that, but if she didn’t feel the levels of misery that some people feel are appropriate, I don’t have a problem with it. And I don’t think it’s part of any broader point about “civility.”
Just for the record, you’re aware this thoroughly hypocritical, right? I mean, you say you’re nauseated by the confessions, and you don’t do the one thing you can do to discourage it, which is not pay attention?
There are plenty of things about myself I don’t share, and plenty I don’t need to know about coworkers, acquaintances, or friends. [Or Dopers. I’m looking in your direction, TMI thread people. ;)] So I try not to participate- I think that’s a better solution than declaring that some things just shouldn’t be talked about.
Anyone else thinking of this Onion article?
I’m with those who say, TMI. I’m as pro-choice as they come, but I still find this somewhat…creepy. Just…ew.
I just want to note that throwing a party as a fund raising method is neither new nor the same as begging friends for cash. It’s like any other fund raiser. You provide the entertainment, you let people know the details, they decide if they want to come out and throw some cash in the hat. A fund raising party is cheap to throw, and I’ve known several people who used them to help pay for various medical procedures (everything from cancer treatments to chest surgery for a transsexual guy). Heck, back in the 20s, people were throwing rent parties. Nothing new under the sun.
Is an abortion fund raiser tacky? Probably. But it doesn’t ruffle my feathers any. I certainly have friends that I would help out, financially, if they got pregnant and wanted to abort. And I get a few drinks out of it, so much the better. Why should they be ashamed? Accidents happen.
I don’t know what it is that makes me think that saying “I’ve had an abortion” or “I’ve been raped” is fine, but that having a whole event about it creeps me out. Maybe it is hypocrisy…or maybe it’s just context. I guess I don’t think Take Back the Night is on the same level as this party, since it’s a pretty serious event while this party is light hearted. I don’t think all people who have abortions should be sad about them. If a woman feels relief at one, that’s fine. But a party is supposed to be happy by its nature. It just seems frivolous. Like, it’s the stereotypical liberal “isn’t abortion GREAT?” reaction. Like the article that Guin just linked to.
You know, I really hate the whole “you’re a man, you have no right to an opinion.” However, I DO think that men should NOT have a right to tell a woman how she should FEEL. And Diogenes, I think you’re crossing that line.
I’m not sure the party was thrown with the intent to celebrate, it was a fundraser. I’ve been to many many benefits for sick people, families who’ve lost members to death, disease, accidents. Just last week there was a benefit for a family whos house burned down. They lost everything. Nobody was happy about the fire, everyone was concerned for the family and wanted to help.
It also doesn’t need to cost much money to throw a fundraiser. People often donate stuff, or ‘bring your own’ whatever.
WTF are you talking about? What woman did I tell how to feel?
Perhaps you think that, due to the forum, they’re just doing it for attention, or not being sincere?
It does. If anything, I think I would find it tackier if she’d held a party after getting an abortion; that would seem more celebratory. But she needed money for it and decided to have a party instead of hitting people up for money in private. That doesn’t bother me as much.
I don’t really care, abortion is either wrong or it’s not - it doesn’t make sense to think it’s OK as long as you act sufficiently ashamed about it.
I can’t imagine the terror of being uninsured, having no money and needing to get an abortion in a geo-political context where time is very possibly not on your side. If I were a friend of the girl’s, I’d turn up and donate a few $$. I wouldn’t get drunk, though.
Broadsheetweighs in on some of the issues.
I’m not asking that anyone wear sackcloth and ashes, am I? Methinks you are excluding a pretty big middle here. I for one do not require she feel any “misery” whatsoever, which is a far cry from making a public exhibition of the matter.
All right, I appologize – perhaps you did not do so directly. However, I find your “wart on an anus” comment somewhat insensitive- for SOME women, an abortion is not a very easy decision, and even then, I would think an unwanted pregnancy is a lot more, I dunno, “disturbing?”, or “distressful?” than an ass-wart.
I think what disgusts me the most about this – it’s merely giving the other side more fodder to think that the pro-choice side is a bunch of heart-less morons. I don’t want these people associated with me, any more than many pro-life groups would want Randall Terry associated with them.
(And again, TMI. Big time)
I do not believe women should be ashamed of having abortions, at all. That does not mean they should be something to be proud of or celebrated. There is, in fact, a middle ground, people.
I think that as time goes on and women’s rights, including the right to have an abortion, become something taken for granted rather than something to have to fight for, and as a result, being ashamed *or *proud is no longer necessary (I view pride as being the antidote to shame; if no one insists you should be ashamed, it’s no longer necessary to be proud), we’ll collectively be able let go of the knee-jerk reactions of condemnation on the one side and defensiveness on the other, and abortions will begin to be viewed rather like, as another poster mentioned, other instances in which human death is necessary - nothing to be ashamed of, but a somewhat sad, necessary thing to do.
Human beings attach feelings to fetuses. We regard them as babies long before they resemble babies in any meaningful way. We mourn miscarriages. The idea that this is true in every instance *except *the desired termination of a pregnancy is, I think, a defense mechanism against being told that abortions are horrible and wrong.
Sure, a lot of women who have abortions are relieved and happy, and understandably so - children are a huge and often unwanted drain on our emotional, physical and material resources and a huge responsibility. But many women who have abortions also grieve their loss. Of course it’s okay if they don’t, I’m just pointing out, that as a species, we grieve human loss in general and we regard the loss of even fetuses as human loss in general. Individual opinion varies, of course, and is no less legitimate.
I don’t think it ultimately matters how the fetus is lost or who wanted it or didn’t. It’s still a necessary loss, and I don’t think it’s hypocritical of me to support the right to unashamedly have abortions and still view it as sadly necessary. After all, no one would choose to have an abortion if they could have just prevented the pregnancy in the first place, right? The fact that anyone has to have an abortion reflects our medical incompetence at reliably preventing unwanted pregnancy in the first place.
I think the fact that women are put in the position biologically and medically of having to have abortions to prevent having children is unfortunate and I feel sad for them/us (I’ve never had to have an abortion, thankfully). Maybe that makes me a hypocrite in your eyes. Fine. But I stand by all those sentiments, dammit.
As for the specific party itself, I support their right to have one and to feel whatever they feel regarding abortions. I also reserve my right to feel about it the same way I’d feel about someone celebrating having killed 20 enemy soldiers in war. As kind of disrespectful to the humans who lost their lives, however it happened and regardless of whether it was necessary, but still a legitimate reaction. Just not one I’d feel comfortable partaking of. And I admit, I let my personal feelings on how I’d feel about having to have an abortion color my initial response and I apologize for that.
The analogy was only meant to compare abortion to a medical procedure which is similarly intensely private to most people, but not frivolous or flippant and not done purely for vanity. I was objecting to the suggestion that it should be compared to something as non-serious as an elective boob job.
I chose anal warts, not because I was trying to compare a fetus to an anal wart (though I can see why people would take it that way), I was just trying to use an example of something that most people would not want to publicize.
I don’t think I’ve excluded the middle. In the post you quoted, I said I wasn’t suggesting the woman should be celebrated for what she did. The general point I’ve tried to make here is that some posters have suggested ‘I’m okay with abortion, but I feel better about it if the women who have them feel bad about it.’ I’m saying it doesn’t need to work like that.
Are those people hosting their own benefit? If so, tacky.
Someone else shake down your friends for cash for your benefit is a long established tradition - that is still tacky, but at least YOU aren’t committing the sin. Hosting your own benefit - you’d have to be able to claim that the stress of the tragedy you were facing was enough to make your leave your senses.
While I personally find this party distasteful, I’m not the arbiter of taste for anyone but myself. The party and making donations are elective choices; a friend invited could decline and tell the host why, or could attend but refuse to make a donation.
Given how skewed and jacked up some of the senses of humor on this board go (IMO), I don’t have a problem with this. I suspect it doesn’t happen enough for us to be very concerned about it. Seems like it’s a matter for those who held the party and those who were invited.
When I was in college I was introduced to the concept of the “rent party.” You bring a few bucks to a friend’s house to help them make the rent at the end of the month. Again, I don’t see the problem here. You can choose to either go or not go, and I suppose you could go and not donate.
On the one hand, I think it’s tacky to hold a fundraising party for yourself and I’m put off by the idea of celebrating an abortion. On the other hand, as others have pointed out, at a fundraising gala for childhood leukemia, it’s understood that the guests aren’t celebrating childhood leukemia as they enjoy themselves. And, too, what’s the alternative here? Carrying the baby to term and giving it up for adoption has its own set of ramifications – physically, emotionally, and financially. We don’t know whether the couple asked their parents for financial help, or whether their parents would’ve been willing to provide it, whether Maggie’s insurance (if any, and probably none once she graduated) would cover pre-natal care, what their situation and plans were as they approached their college graduation. $400 for an abortion is likely less than it would’ve cost to continue the pregnancy, much less to raise a child. It’s hard for me to decide whether it’s less tacky to privately solicit donations, or provide your friends something - even if it’s just a good time - in exchange for their help.
As for the line between public and private, that line is often blurred between friends, and it’s important to remember that this was a private party. Only the couple’s friends, who probably would’ve been told about the pregnancy and abortion anyway, were invited. It was the author and publisher who chose to make it public by printing an article about it online.