[QUOTE=Cisco]
Go play atheist for a day in public. Say it loud! You’re a heretic and you’re proud!
Disclaimer: Be prepared to lose lose acquaintances, job opportunities, possibly a couple friends, and be physically assaulted.
[/QUOTE]
Any personal testimony to go along with this?
I can’t see much reason to discuss beliefs at all in 98% of all social situations. I’d be equally annoyed by a believer or non believer who felt the need to advertise.
** for yucks here’s a little anecdote that happened just yesterday. **
At my music store we deal with plenty of Christians and most are wonderful. I’ve had one or two ask for a discount for the Lord which I think is tacky but whatever.
We have a clean up guy but the store is large so we hired a guy who approached us to do the floors with a waxer buffer. He came in a hurried through. The floors looked good at first but as the shine wore off management wasn’t satisfied and called him to say no thanks, you don’t need to come back.
Yesterday he and the Mrs came in and wanted to see the owner to ask why they weren’t being rehired. I asked him and he was busy and not interested in talking to them which I politely relayed. I pointed out the manager they had first talked to and they said they didn’t want to talk to him. Okay. They waited for 20 minutes or so thinking the owner might come out. The manager acknowledged them and said, “I’ll be over when I’ve finished with this customer”
They left but on the way out the Mrs added “Thank you, you all have a blessed day. And I hope God blesses your business too. You’d be more blessed with us here.” As she turned her back on us she added “Don’t mess with God’s people”
I half expected her to shake the dust from her sandals.
One of our employees who doesn’t tolerate shit shot out.
“Don’t do crappy work in the name of God!”
It’s unfortunate she reacted that way but I thought he was right on and funny too.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
As she turned her back on us she added “Don’t mess with God’s people”
I half expected her to shake the dust from her sandals.
[/QUOTE]
You know, when your entire stock, (aside from the Christian religious music) melts tomorrow night in an Act of God disaster, you’re gonna be sorry.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Any personal testimony to go along with this?
[/QUOTE]
Yeah but I can’t be fucked to find it right now with the way the board is performing. Try looking in “How is it hurting me, jayjay?” from last week. It’s somewhere within the first few pages IIRC (I narrowed it down to that thread because it wasn’t in any of the others I looked in.)
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
You know, when your entire stock, (aside from the Christian religious music) melts tomorrow night in an Act of God disaster, you’re gonna be sorry.
[/QUOTE]
I have no idea how “we’re not going to use your services” was presented to him. I applaud someone trying to work an honest business. Had I been manager {like I should be :mad: } I’d have taken the time to make it clear to him what specifically I was unhappy about and perhaps give him the chance to make it right. It’s up to him how to take sincere criticism.
I’ve seen the sarcastic “have a blessed day” before. Bugs me a bunch. If you’re mad then be mad. Do you think an insincere blessing makes you or your religion look better, or hides the “fuck you” tone in your voice? A good “fuck you” is more honest.
Just in case though, when I go to work tomorrow I’ll get the whole staff to join in on “What a freind we have in Jesus” and “How Great thou Art” as a counter spell.
speaking of counter spells and vaguely related
Best line in recent history was Tom Waits singing on the Daily Show
The song is Day after tomorrow . The verse is
You can’t deny
The other side
Don’t want to die
Any more than we do
What I’m trying to say,
Is don’t they pray
To the same God that we do?
Tell me, how does God choose?
Whose prayers does he refuse?
Who turns the wheel?
And who throws the dice
On the day after tomorrow?
It’s a beautiful thing.
[QUOTE=Cisco]
Yeah but I can’t be fucked to find it right now with the way the board is performing. Try looking in “How is it hurting me, jayjay?” from last week. It’s somewhere within the first few pages IIRC (I narrowed it down to that thread because it wasn’t in any of the others I looked in.)
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for checking and I’ll look.
It seems to me I remember seeing some accounts in the “Atheists not trusted” thread.
I understand someone thinking " I don’t understand how someone can be an atheist"
I don’t get what prompts people to syncially believe the worst about something they just don’t understand.
There were a couple of good shows on thrity days dealing with religious belief. They had a Christian living with Muslims show. A straight guy who thought the Bible said being gay was wrong, who lived with gays for 30 days, and a lady who was pro choice and perhaps an atheist who lived with a Christian family that helped unwed mothers and opposed abortion. They were all pretty interesting social studies.
You chose a good example. That would annoy the hell out of me as gender specific comments have for decades. But I would see it as GWB’s senseless sexism – his mistake. I would not feel any less a citizen.
Eleanor Roosevelt said something to the effect that no one can make you feel inferior without your cooperation. (I paraphrase.)
Until now, I did not understand that you don’t object to our statement of personal beliefs here. We seem to be in agreement about the inappropriateness of it on most state occasions.
Cisco, do you still live in that conservative area? I ask because I do know atheists who live in Nashville (a liberal city) that don’t seem to have any problems with it socially or in their work.
On the other hand, I was given problems on the job (public school teacher) by fundamentalists who didn’t like my liberal Christian views, so I can see your point of view too.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I’d be willing to certain scrotumless members of scociety scratch mine 
[/QUOTE]
But of course! Bush was talking about scratching scrotums because he’s a uniter, not a divider! I’ll bet his favorite song is The Youngbloods’ *Get Together.
*
[QUOTE=Zoe]
Cisco, do you still live in that conservative area? I ask because I do know atheists who live in Nashville (a liberal city) that don’t seem to have any problems with it socially or in their work.
[/QUOTE]
Nah, I live in Phoenix. It’s considered conservative as far as big cities go but it’s pretty liberal compared to most rural areas.
[QUOTE=Cisco]
Nah, I live in Phoenix. It’s considered conservative as far as big cities go but it’s pretty liberal compared to most rural areas.
[/QUOTE]
I read a couple of your posts in the other threads about your experiences. Pretty dam crazy stuff. I have a reverence for what I believe Jesus represents which is basically, love they neighbor as thyself. It always saddens and sometimes angers me to see that principle so violated by those who claim to worship him.
Have you talked with other atheists who have had similar experiences? I’ll have to look for that other thread. Now I’m really curious. I grew up in a rural area and never heard of anything like that.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Have you talked with other atheists who have had similar experiences?
[/QUOTE]
Not many that I can think of. My brother made the mistake of letting his atheism be known at work and he has taken a lot of shit for it. He was doing the job above him in addition to his job for about a year and a half before he got officially promoted to it (common in our industry but it’s usually more like 3-6 months, not a year and a half.)
I don’t meet many atheists. Even in college I took a lot of philosophy/religion type classes and I thought I’d meet more atheists but I didn’t.
[QUOTE=Cisco]
Not many that I can think of. My brother made the mistake of letting his atheism be known at work and he has taken a lot of shit for it. He was doing the job above him in addition to his job for about a year and a half before he got officially promoted to it (common in our industry but it’s usually more like 3-6 months, not a year and a half.)
I don’t meet many atheists. Even in college I took a lot of philosophy/religion type classes and I thought I’d meet more atheists but I didn’t.
[/QUOTE]
How many people did you meet that said, “Well I’m not really an atheist because I believe in something. I’m just not sure what.” I’ve even met people who claim to be atheist that turn out not to be once you get the details. They reject the angry sky god of some religions and I don’t blame them. So do I.
I hope that you have seen on this board that there are many believers that honor and respect your personal belief system.
I have a dear old friend who still belongs to the church I am a former member of. That church believes they were founded by a prophet and still have a prophet leader who gets revelation from God and passes the message on to the members. The problem is that a few years ago when the prophet brought forth a message they didn’t like her congregation decided to reject that particular revelation and maintain their old beliefs in spite of this “new” message.
My discussion with her went something like this.
So your denomination believes in new direct revelation from God through the prophet? {Of course I knew that but I wanted to start there}
“Yes that’s true”
And yet when your prophet presented you with this particular revelation and most of the membership accepted it after prayer and fasting, your congregation decided to reject it, Reject the words of your own prophet?
“That’s right”
So, you felt so strongly that this went against your own conscience and your concept of God’s will for you, that you rejected it , and claimed your right to worship according to the sincere dictates of your own mind and heart, even though it went against the words of your own prophet and the majority of the world church members?
I suppose thats true.
{Here’s the good bit}
Don’t you think that act of claiming your own right to worship freely creates for you some moral obligation to allow others that same freedom?
No answer for that one.
That’s how I see it. We each have the right to claim our own path. Hopefully we have the courage to do so in spite of whatever pressure we experience. {As you did} Because I want this right for myself I feel obligated to honor and support it in others, including those I don’t agree with. I cannot be in their shoes or in their heart so I show them the human consideration of allowing them to work things out in their own way and in their own time.
Of course such varied beliefs inevitably lead us to conflict with others. How we handle those conflicts is one way to measure our own growth.
Once again I’ve rambled…sorry.
thanks for sharing your stories.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I understand the distinction. As I’ve said, actions. We see that belief and non belief are only part of the equation and IMHO don’t offer any insight into the values of an individual. A person with God belief may be a great boon to their friends and family or a zealot prick. Same for the non believer. Inevitably our belief system does affect others.
So do we agree? Any belief or non belief, must be questioned and judged on the basis of how it affects others.
[/quote]
I agree that this is one of the ways in which it should be judged. An orthogonal way is its truth value. I agree that it might be useful to hold (but not propagate) false but useful beliefs, and I also could say it may not be wise to propagate true but not very useful beliefs - to be summed up as if you can’t say something nice about someone, then say nothing.
Sure. I might misjudge the meaning of a subjective experience. I have. Then, other evidence comes into play and I reevaluate my position. That’s how we weed out what is relevant and meaningful from the superficial.
[/quote]
The alien abduction experience might be relevant and life changing without being true. Though in this case it turns out that no real aliens were involved, it might be that the person’s brain was trying to tell him something, and the dream would help him listen. Acknowledging that the experience was internal doesn’t mean you have to ignore it. Your story might well be an example of that.
[QUOTE=Zoe]
Eleanor Roosevelt said something to the effect that no one can make you feel inferior without your cooperation. (I paraphrase.)
[/QUOTE]
Consent, not cooperation.
[QUOTE=Voyager]
I agree that this is one of the ways in which it should be judged. An orthogonal way is its truth value. I agree that it might be useful to hold (but not propagate) false but useful beliefs, and I also could say it may not be wise to propagate true but not very useful beliefs - to be summed up as if you can’t say something nice about someone, then say nothing.
[/QUOTE]
It’s truth value. 
… Comon buddy…give us a hug.
It’s be correctly observed on these boards that we all hold some false beliefs. You’ve said even smart people hold irrational beliefs about something haven’t you. That being the case I see no need to critisize someone for holding beliefs I don’t agree with unless until the inevitable interaction comes and those beliefs are affecting me. How I handle the the interaction is a testing ground for my own beliefs.
I believe we as individuals and a race are being called to go forward toward understanding and discovery. Supersition and myth play their role in that. If there had been no stories of Icarus, there would have been no Orville and Wilbur.
Oh it definitely was internal. No doubt about it. Or maybe the problem is we seem to be able to think only in terms of internal or external. Perhaps what we will eventually discover is those aren’t the only two options. We just can’t perceive anything else right now.
I had an experience years ago that I interpreted as leading me to a specific church. I see now that my desire to be a part of that group with those good people colored my interpretation. It’s okay. That’s the process.
Now my beliefs are much different and I’m on the verge of abandoning the term God. I couldn’t have imagined it then but it feels fine now.
The question for me about the experience I described is where did the profound insight come from? Was it merely a chemical reaction in my brain? If it was then we need to learn more about it because it was dam helpful. In the meantime, the path I’ve chosen works fine for me.
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus]
So, this is an example of the sort of logic I am told I must apply to life. I think this particular type of logic is called the false dichotomy. Two statements demonstrating argument by popularity and an unspoken assumption that disagreement with the speaker can only be caused by stupidity and willful ignorance.
That isn’t logic. That is prejudice dressed up in rhetorical clothes, and it is just another brand of ignorance. We fight that here.
Tris
[/QUOTE]
What I think we are pointing out is this. There are about 2 billion Christians who believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and that Mohammed was NOT the messenger and last prophet of God.
There are over one billion Mulsims who believe that Mohammed WAS the messenger and last prophet of God, and that Jesus was a prophet of God but NOT his only-begotten son.
Now then Tris, you will no doubt have noted that there are a number of mutually contradictory statements in the two paragraphs above.
I think we can agree that when we face two mutually contradictory statements, they cannot both be true. But it is possible for them both to be false.
For example, take these two statements:
Pierre Trudeau was President of Canada during all of 1967
Brian Mulroney was President of Canada during all of 1967.
Now, these two statements simply cannot both be true (unless Canada has a constitution allowing for 2 Presidents at once).
But in fact, both of these statements are doubly FALSE. Canada has no President. Pierre Trudeau was Prime Minister of Canada, and so was Brian Mulroney. But neither of them held that office in 1967.
Now the point of all of the above is simply this. Islam and Christianity cannot both be right in their mutually exclusive claims about the divinity of Christ. But they could both be wrong if God does not exist.
The other point I wish to make to you this this. Christians like you offer as a substitute for hard evidence the fact that they have “experienced” Jesus in their lives, that they somehow “know” and “believe” in his divinity and presence in their lives, in spite of the dictates of logic and the complete lack of evidence.
Other arguments that are sometimes offered in support of this view are reported “miracles” and the willingness of Christian believers to die for their faith. People do not die for a falsehood, we are told.
But the fact is that Muslims offer precisely the same arguments for their religion (indeed, Muslim suicide bombers are dying for that belief in our own age).
So here is my question to you, Tris.
If William says he is convinced in his heart that Jesus is the Son of God and the Bible is His revelation; and if Ahmed is equally convinced that Jesus is NOT the son of God, that Mohammed is the Prophet of God and the Koran His revelation, and if both of them die for what they believe, **must we not conclude that at least one of them was personally convinced of and died for a falsehood? ** And if in fact, they may both have believed in their hearts and died for a falsehood if in fact there is no God, or if there is a God but he has neither sons nor prophets.
Are you therefore willing to conclude with me that it MUST be possible for a person to be personally convinced of and even die for a falsehood?
With thousands dead in Iraq because of secular lies, it seems to me you worked really hard for this, but: Yes, it MUST be possible for a person to be personally convinced of and even die for a falsehood.
Can I still be a Christian?
Tris
But who said that faith is bivalent? Why can’t people have opposite perspectives and both be right?
We are told many things that are untrue. Why bring falsehoods that haven’t been claimed here into the discussion? Are we supposed to defend beliefs we don’t hold? If someone is using that logic, they are not thinking things through.
The Muslim is a child of God. I am a child of Allah. It’s all the same to me. I’m not interested in a “My Savior’s bigger than your Savior” battle with anyone. I’d rather buy hyacinths to feed the soul.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
But who said that faith is bivalent? Why can’t people have opposite perspectives and both be right?
[/QUOTE]
Because of the usually exclusive nature of said claims, meaning that one belief normally nulls the other. Logically I hasten to add.
Of course when you have faith-based “evidence” in support of both cases anything is possible. Batman over Superman or vice versa?
Certainly not my job to provide evidence for either. Might as well ask a three year-old why Santa’s sled is physically on the way…