Calling all smart math people......

Omniscient wrote:

That may be, but the first URL provided in this thread (by Dorf OnLine) used exactly this notation at one point. Without explaining it, I might add. I was a mite confused by it, m’self.

Pickman’s Model: Believe it or not, the Twin Paradox can be explained completely without having to use ANY formulas. It’s like this:

  1. Special relativity says that if you’re standing still, and you look at someone else going past you at 86.6% of the speed of light, you will see his clock moving twice as slow as yours, even though he will see his clock running at normal speed.

  2. Special relativity ALSO says that if you’re moving at 86.6% of the speed of light, and you look at someone else standing still as you pass him, you will see HIS clock moving twice as slow as yours, even though he will see his clock running at normal speed.

So, if two identical twins are separated at age 20, one of whom stays on Earth for 40 years, and the other of whom takes off in a rocket ship and whizzes around the cosmos at 86.6% of the speed of light and then returns to Earth 40 years later – which one will have aged 40 years, and which one will have only aged 20 years? Remember, each sees the other’s clock as moving half as fast as their own while the rocket-bound twin is in flight.


Quick-N-Dirty Aviation: Trading altitude for airspeed since 1992.

Just noticed this thread.

This appears to be an implicit differential equation for the instantaneous magnitude of a space-time interval. (s would be the magnitude of the space-time interval).

I don’t see anything wrong with the notation. It doesn’t appear to say anything specifically about the twins paradox, but I could see how it might be used to talk about it.

The only reason that I could see a need for this equation would be to describe the effects of acceleration within special relativity (which would require the complete neglection of gravity). Getting to the meat of the twins paradox does involve understanding how acceleration plays in.

Usually in special relativity we talk about uniform linear motion. The magnitude of a space-time interval in that case can simply be determined as

sqrt((x[sub]2[/sub]-x[sub]1[/sub])[sup]2[/sup] + (y[sub]2[/sub]-y[sub]1[/sub])[sup]2[/sup] + (z[sub]2[/sub]-z[sub]1[/sub])[sup]2[/sup] - c[sup]2/sup[sup]2[/sup])

Hrmm. There’s a difference in signs, isn’t there? I’ll hafta look into that. Not sure why the differential equation has reverse signs.

Just read the twins paradox link. The equation that PM provided is identical to the equation they give on that page:
<img src=http://www.weburbia.com/physics/eq-tausq.gif>
They just look slightly different, because they are talking in units based on c = 1.

Still not sure as to why the signs are different from the version I knew.

Although I have read extensively into both matrhematics and physics, I do not consider myself an abolute authority, so keep that in mind when reading the followiing explanation:
In three dimensional curves, s usually stands for arc length. That is, if a particle goes from a point on a curve that has an s value of say 5 to a point with an s value of 6, the particle has gone one unit length. Using the pythogorian thereom, (s1-s2)^2~= (x1-x2)^2+(y1-y2)^2+(z1-z2)^2 if s is very small. Mathematically, ds represents the concept of the change in s if the change is very small. So |ds|=|s1-s2| and ds=sprt of a bunch of stuff.
Now, if we go to four dimensions, things get more complicated. It’s easy to imagine s in three dimensions to be amount of time that the particle has been moving. After 5 seconds, it has such and such an x coordinate, such and such a y coordinate, etc. But in four dimensions, time becomes a coordinate in which the particle “moves”. That is, the particles “traces” a path through not only height, width, and lenth, but also time.
So what does s represent? I can’t really explain that; the best I can say is that s is the amount time that the particle experiences. So if in a particular frame of reference, a particle spends t seconds moving through d distance (d^2= x^2+y^2+z^2; if your substitute that expression for d^2 in the following equation you’ll end up with the equation of the day), the amount of time that the particle experiences is sprt(t^2-d^2). (Assuming that time and distance are represented in the “same” units).
If you know anything about relativity, this should make at least a modicum of sense to you; the more time a person in one frame of reference experiences, the more everyone experiences. However, the more someone else moves, the faster they must be moving, and therefore the less time they experience. If, in your frame of reference, someone is moving at the speed of light, then d and t will be equal (because the conversion factor between them is defined to be the speed of light) so s^2=0; the person will experience no time.
Another way of looking at this is that space is imaginary time; not imaginary in the sense that it doesn’t exist but imaginary in the mathematical sense of being a multiple of the square root of negative one. Space squared is negative time squared and vice versa.
Another interesting aspect of this equation is that given a particle that is expoeriencing no forces other than gravity, and given two points (in four dimensional space) that you know that the particle visits, you can take all the possible paths between the points and calculate the s value for each path. Whichever path has the greatest s value will be the one that particle takes.
For instance, suppose you have to leave Los Angeles at 8 AM and arrive at New York at exactly 10 PM. Now, in case are not aware, the mass of the earth distorts space-time, making people deep in its gravity well (that is, close to its surface) experience slightly less time that those that are far away from the surface. So if you want to spend the most time in your cross country flight as possible (have some last minute work to get done or something) it might be a good idea to get away from the gravity well. But if you go too far away, and then come back, you’ll have to accelerate to a high velocity to make it out and back in the time alloted. Going at a high speed means that you experience less time. So you want a balance between getting away from the earth’s gravity well and not going to fast. It turns out that the best possible curve is basically a parabola, that is, exactly the path that you would take if you left the earth with a certain velocity, did not accelerate, and just followed a ballistic (that is, unpowered) trajectory to New York. What looks to us like curved paths are actually the longest possible paths, are therefore, in a sense, the “straighest” paths. That is, they are geodesics on the space-time manifolds, to throw out a bunch of fancy terms.
As for the sign difference, that’s just a matter of notation. If you take t^2 to be positive, then that’s “time distance”. A positive time distance between event A and and event B (“event” refers to a point in four dimensional space) represents the most time that it could have taken a signal to go from event A to event B. If the time distance is positive, then in every frame of reference event A will appear to occur before event B. The amount of time will be relative to reference frame, but the order is absolute. If, however, one takes space be positive, then one gets the space distance. If two events have a positive space distance, then it means that there is more space between the two events than can be crossed by any particle moving at a speed equal to or less than light speed. Different reference frames will disagree about which event occurred “first” since the events are “too far apart” to get an absolute order.
I hope this has shed at least some light (no pun intended) onto the issue. If you have specific points you’re still confused about, or clarifications to make, please let me know. I’m sure that there are more elegant ways of explaining this stuff; in fact Feynman probably has written one somewhere.

Although I can sell you exactly one pound of candy for $12.35, made up of candy priced at $11.47/pound and candy priced at $14.72/pound (I hope you don’t mind; I had to break some of the pieces to get it to come out right), I lay no claim to being a smart math person. Especially after reading this thread. Feel free to flame me out of existence for having the temerity to show myself here.

Still, I pride myself on a certain knack for finding out stuff, even after I’ve hit what some might call a brick wall. Perhaps going around the wall can be tried.

Atrael, thanks for asking abuot how Pickman’s Model got interested in this stuff; it’s given me an idea.

Officer Model (and forgive me if I’ve inadvertently demoted you from Inspector or something), WWII was not that long ago. Some of the people who fought in it might even still be alive. Does Mr. Manchestr’s book mention whether Wally Moon survived the war? Is there anything to be gained by attempting to find Mr. Moon and asking him?

There’s no second derivative involved, this is the standard distance formula.

In two dimensions, it’s Pythagoras, the distance between the two points is:
h^2 = x^2 + y^2

If we use cartesian coordinats, then the distance along the x-axis is x2 - x1 (those should be subscripts), which we represent by dx (meaning a change in the x-variable.)

Thus, in 3-dimensions, the distance between two points is given by:

SQRT [ (dx)^2 + (dy)^2 + (dz)^2 ]

Einstein is the one who postulated that time is simply a fourth dimension, and that you can incorporate time into the formula by:
(a) multiplying it by c (speed of light) to get it to the same units (feet or meters or whatever); and
(b) put a negative sign in front of it to reflect that time is different from the space coordinates.

Thus, the distance between two objects in four-dimensional space-time is given by:

SQRT[ (dx)^2 + (dy)^2 + (dz)^2 - (c * dt)^2 ]

That’s pretty much what you got there, Pickman – it’s Einstein’s way of reflecting the distance between two points (not on sphere, but in cartesian coordinates) when you know their location in the xyz-space and you know their separation by time t.

h = SQRT[ (dx)^2 + (dy)^2 ]

I’m a little sick today, so hopefully it won’t be the cough syrup talking…

The Ryan, I think I agree with the general gist of what you are saying.

Describing s as arc-length is right on. The arc is normally referred to as a worldline. I referred to it as the magnitude of a spacetime interval, because the length of the worldline is the scalar element in the vector that is normally called a “space-time interval”. I guess we could also call ds an infinitessimal wordline segment.

You lose me here a bit. One of the things that is special about a space-time interval is that it is “invariant”, i.e. the interval is the same for all observers at all velocities.

Doh! Yes, of course. It is the difference between describing a “timelike” interval vs. a “spacelike” interval.

You briefly mentioned imaginary time, and I feel like fleshing that out, since Hawking likes to talk about it.

Given:
c = speed of light
i = square root of -1
t = time
Then the value “cit” gives us the quantity that Hawking refers to as imaginary time.

If we say that T=cit, then we can write

sqrt((x[sub]2[/sub]-x[sub]1[/sub])[sup]2[/sup] + (y[sub]2[/sub]-y[sub]1[/sub])[sup]2[/sup] + (z[sub]2[/sub]-z[sub]1[/sub])[sup]2[/sup] + (T[sub]2[/sub]-T[sub]1[/sub])[sup]2[/sup])

And thus we can describe spacetime with homogeneous dimensions.