Can all these hispanic people I see really be here legally?

Great Debates
1

This is similar to a recent thread in General Questionshere on the topic of immigrants:
How easy is it for Jose Average from Mexico to immigrate legally to the USA?
but I wanted to ask the question more pointedly.

Where I live, in the Northern Virginia area, there is a huge number of hispanic people. There are certain areas of Alexandria, Arlington and Fairfax that are primarily hispanic neighborhoods (mainly because the housing is cheap).

Increasingly, when I go out and about, like shopping at the Target or Kohl’s or wherever, the majority of people I see are hispanic, and are speaking only Spanish. Also, when I drive through certain areas, such as Annandale or Bailey’s Crossroads, I see groups of hispanic men gathered on every single corner. I am talking groups of 4, 6, 8 or more men, just standing or sitting on the side of the road, at every corner. They are presumably day laborers waiting for jobs, but clearly if they are standing around during the middle of the day in great numbers, there must not be enough jobs to go around.

Anyway now to my question. How do these hispanic immigrants get to the US legally? Isn’t it pretty difficult to get permission to be here legally? (See Eva Luna’s description below - it seems they don’t grant many green cards, especially to unskilled workers.) So that leads me to believe that the majority of the people I am seeing are illegal immigrants. But how can it be that there are so many? How do they manage? How does one rent housing, get a bank account, or get a job without a social security number? I mean, are there really that many employers hiring illegal workers?

And now to the question that makes this a Great Debate, as opposed to just a General Question:

The state provides services to all of these people and their families, regardless of whether they are legal or illegal. Their kids all have a right to attend public schools. Because so many of them don’t speak English, we have to institute ESL programs, which strains school budgets. The social services agencies and justice system devotes an inordinate amount of resources to immigrants (cite: my mother works in a local juvenile court system and she says a huge number of their cases involve immigrant families, and that they are not allowed to take into account their immigration status, or even ask about it). They are entitled to all the same services as anyone else.

So, is this a problem? Discuss…

Eva Luna’s quote from the other thread:

2

I can’t say how many of them you see are illegal but, as you say, most of them can’t just because the volume through those channels doesn’t really exist. Employers all over the nation gratefully hire illegal Hispanic workers. I have seen it in volume everywhere from chicken farmers in rural Louisiana to landscapers in upscale Massachusetts. The dirty secret is that there is no single powerful group in the U.S. that wants to crack down on illegal Hispanic immigration. Business owners want them to be here as much as the bleeding hearts do but for slightly different reasons.

The situation becomes complicated by the fact that the children may have been born here and are therefore U.S. citizens themselves. It isn’t an ideal situation all around but it seems to have hit some balance where there isn’t much pressure for government to take any action in particular and have that decision be popular with the majority of voters.

3

Can all those Hispanic people you see really be here legally? Yes, they can. Are they? No clue. It tends to vary on a person-to-person basis.

I don’t think it’s fair, however, to read more likelihood into any individual Hispanic person’s illegality than any individual non-Hispanic person’s, even if the aggregate statistics may (or may not) seem to confirm greater likelihood.

4

To be fair, the OP wasn’t talking about individual prejudice. He was asking about aggregates. If you see a large group of any poor Hispanics whose first language isn’t English and admit to coming from poor countries, there are barely any legal channels for them to be here so it is a valid reason for wondering. There shouldn’t be any problem with individual Americans seeing the issues from both sides themselves because I assume that some attempt will be made to address the problem eventually and informed citizens are a good thing.

5

I just have a really hard time believing that the majority of this huge population of hispanics that has been growing in the Northern Virginia region is here legally. Here’s why:

It’s really hard to get a work visa to come here. Someone I know who is British and has a specialized degree in an industry that is big here couldn’t get a work visa. So how do all these laborers so easily get visas? Even if they get a landscaping company or construction company to sponsor them, then why are there so many men standing around on the corners waiting for work? Clearly those people don’t have sponsors - otherwise they would be working for them.

Like shagnasty said, since it is so difficult to get here legally, even in the best case scenario, then I really have to wonder. Then when I see such a high number of recent immigrants, who don’t speak English, I wonder how can so many exist and work and live here without somebody noticing and doing something about it?

I think the problem lies in that they’re here, and they’re working, but not paying taxes. Yes they are utilizing public services (schools, roads, infrastructure, social services, justice system, etc.)

I am not making a statement about whether they should be allowed to be here, or what should happen to them if they are illegal… I think they are some of the most determined and hard-working people around (as in, they want to make a better life for themselves and their families, and are willing to work hard for it). I am just curious how so many illegals could be here and get away with it. OR if they are here legally, how do so many of them managed to get here legally when it is so hard to do so?

6

That should say “YET they are utilizing public services”

7

What makes you think they aren’t paying any taxes? Are they buying things in stores? Do they rent places to live? Do they own cares with license plates? Then they are paying taxes.

8

Another factor to take into consideration is that with some exceptions (like diplomats) being born in the U.S makes you a citizen even if your parents weren’t here legally.

9

Shagnasty summed things up pretty well. Our representatives have turned a blind eye to the issue, on both sides of the aisle. Back when Reagan granted amnesty to six million illegals, part and parcel to that idea was to then control immigration. But that wasn’t done, now we have 12 million more illegals. And as yuou say, they place a burden on services like schools and hospitals.

As I said, both sides are to blame, but for different reasons. The dems see a future vote in every illegal. The reps see cheap labor that will keep businesses happy. They also think that if they fight for another amnesty that they may get a larger percent of the hispanic vote than they usually do.

Eva has a lot of knowledge on the subject. But I feel fairly safe saying that she is further to the side of “no one is illegal”. She can, of course, correct me if I am wrong. If you want to read more about the issue from the other perspective, I recommend fairus.org and cis.org. You can also search for threads havin gto do with illegal immigration in which I get beaten about the head for taking a hard-line anti-illegal position. I recommend the ones in GD, as the ones in The Pit can ugly and useless.

10

Fairus and CIS are not reliable. So I do not recomend them.

11

If an undocumented worker is using a false social security number – and in my experience, the vast majority are-- then they are paying taxes. The IRS doesn’t care whether you’re legally here or not–if you work, you pay taxes. Any person without a valid social security number is automatically assigned something called an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, or ITIN.

Found here: Metroactive Features | Undocumented Workers

If you find that cite unsatisfying, I suppose I can dredge up the report I have that shows undocumented workers contribute an average of $4,000 per year per household in taxes – and remember, they don’t get any of that back, unlike your average poor citizen. However, regarding the $4,000 statistic, I don’t know if it’s available online.

12

Yes they are.

13

…and…

Cite?

14

Most of them probably aren’t legal.
The thing most anti-immigrant folks don’t realize is that the US labor force is, demographically, contracting. So unless you’re looking for an economy that grows at a pace that would be less than the rate of growth in productivity, you’re going to want to import some workers.
That’s the reality. Simple, really.

15

You are forgetting about the largest single source of legal immigration to the U.S.: that based on family relationships rather than on an offer of employment from a U.S. employer for which there are no available U.S. workers. Parents and spouses of U.S. citizens are entirely exempt from immigration quotas, and in addition to that, there is an annual quota of 226,000 green cards for various family members of U.S. citizens and permanent residents. Then there are 50,000 Diversity Visa (aka Green Card Lottery) green cards, plus tens of thousands of refugee visas, and 10,000 visas for people granted asylum in the U.S. Here are the green card stats by country of origin and immigration category for 2005, the most recent year for which statistics have been compiled.

And well, plenty of children and grandchildren of Hispanic immigrants “look Hispanic” and speak Spanish with varying degrees of proficiency. Some of the Spanish used around here is awful - I had to restrain myself from correcting the grammar of the teenage cashier at my neighborhood produce stand the other day. Is she a native Spanish speaker? Sorta, but not really - but only someone fluent in Spanish would be able to tell that. And I bet you she’s a U.S. citizen, quite possibly a native-born one.

16

To address the OP: Yeah, nearly all of the guys you see are here illegally. One guy rents a tiny apartment and eight or nine others camp out in it for the duration. Most of them are spilling over from day labor hangouts in Shirlington or Culmore (I would hate to own the 7-11s where these guys congregate). I don’t want to judge your indignation–I’m a neighbor of yours and have my own mixed feelings–but only you know if it’s a problem for you, and to what degree. Their own circumstances are pretty problematic for them.

Mobs of poor, unskilled, swarthy unemployed guys are chiefly unnerving anywhere. But the ones I’ve talked to are generally decent sorts, looking for an honest break. And one of them has a sister I fell in love with a while back.

Right now as I write this, Ugly Betty is getting some award on an NBC awards show. Isn’t that too cute?

17

My opinions on the subject are a tad more nuanced than that, not that it matters for purposes of this thread. I believe that a) there are countless disconnects throughout the U.S. between the supply and demand for labor, partoicularly unskilled and semi-skilled labor; and b) human beings, regardless of whether they are in the U.S. legally, deserve to be treated with respect, particularly if the primary reason they are here illegally is because they are taking advantage of the disconnect in the labor supply to feed themselves and their families more effectively than they could do in their home countries.

Quite simply, the state of U.S. immigration policy is completely divorced from reality. That’s what I believe, and these days it’s a bipartisan belief.

18

Ok so they are paying sales tax and some income tax. That’s good information, but not really what I am wondering about.

I guess I am still intrugued by the question of whether they are here legally. There are just so many hispanics in this area (I am not saying that is good or bad, just a fact). If most of them are legal, how is it so easy for so many of them to obtain visas, when you often hear about how hard it is. If most of them are illegal, how do they get here, and how do they do the many tasks in life which require a SSN - like get a drivers license, buy and register a car*, rent an apartment (you are usually subject to a credit check), etc.

  • heck - recently my boyfriend bought a car withn cash, and they put him through the third degree, making him fill out all sorts of forms with every last bit of personal information, SSN, employer, blah blah (he refused to sign though, saying basically here’s the money, sell me the car or I will go somewhere else)

To be clear, it is not problematic for me at all. I am just intensely curious about the situation and wanted to put it out there for discussion.

Yes if you live in this area and read the news, you know that immigrant overcrowding is a major problem. A whole extended family or large group of people will share a tiny apartment. And the day laborer situation is also a hot topic around here. Certain areas become staging areas for scores and scores of day laborers every day and local government has been trying to come up with a solution. In Herndon, the town proposed a day laborer center, something many voters decried.

The problem is that these large groups of men are hanging out outside of 7-11s and such places all day waiting for work. One of the biggest complaints from the business owners is how the laborers deal with the lack of bathroom facilities (as in, using the back of the store as a toilet). It’s really sad, actually.

Yes I guess I have to admit that being in an area with these large groups of men can be unnerving. On the one hand I feel sorry for them because it must suck to have to wait around all day for work, maybe it will come or maybe not, maybe it will be for way less than minimum wage, or maybe they won’t get paid at all.

However, being a young white woman myself, I have been the subject many many many times of cat-calls and various other stares and comments from these guys. I used to be the type of person who would make eye contact, smile and say hi to strangers as we passed, but in these situations, that only gets me way too much unwanted attention.

On other thing that warrants mention is that with the hispanics, come the extremely violent hispanic gangs. MS-13 is one such gang growing in the N.Va. area, with members recently going on trial for a brutal gang rape, and using a machete to chop off a rival’s hand.

Anyway last thought: just for the record, I am not saying that these immigrants are in any way bad, or that they shouldn’t be here, etc. I am just wondering, how does our society deal with the issues associated with a large number of illegal immigrants growing rapidly in a certain regional area.

19

Regarding the machete, that was a terrifyingly lurid incident, but bear two things in mind: It happened exactly once, and after the first couple of days, as details came to light, police and media backed away from the “chopped a hand off” claim (although the guy was cut pretty badly).

20

Well, I don’t know about your neck of the woods, but around these parts “they” were here first. A good hunk of the state was part of Mexico not long ago, so they really didn’t need permission to come here. Some of the poorest parts of Colorado were settled by Spanish long ago, so economic status isn’t an indicator of anything.

Doesn’t apply to you Easterners, I guess. You and your “we used to be part of England” rubbish. :slight_smile:

I usually assume that people speaking another language are probably at least bilingual, and thus a step ahead of me since I don’t speak nuttin but Americanese.

I have no problem with my tax dollars teaching the kids English or paying for their immunization, but I’m not in favor of throwing open the border. Wouldn’t take much to swamp the system, like maybe is happening in LA and etc. Complicated issue.