Can anyone's mind ever really be changed on the Big Issues?

Great Debates
1

So I’m reading the abortion thread, and the gun-control thread, and the evolution/creation thread, and all the others, and I have to stop and wonder:

In your experience, has anyone’s opinion/belief ever really changed as a result of these debates? Have you yourself ever begun an argument fully convinced of one position, and then after working it over with someone of the opposing view, come around to their belief instead? Do you know, first-hand, anyone who has?

It seems to me that nobody ever really changes their underlying thoughts and rationalizations. I mean, if you read the “homophobic bigots” thread, all 847 pages of it, the same people put forth the same positions and the same arguments, over and over and over, and nobody ever budges. If any changes do happen, they’re small and insignificant, usually where somebody makes an outrageous statement and a bunch of cites come back disproving that particular factoid. But even if the debater admits error on that point, they never, as far as I can tell, actually change their baseline position.

So what on earth is the point of the debate?

In social gatherings, I never, ever talk about religion, politics, or anything like that where an unending unwinnable argument is likely to result. I have very strong opinions, naturally, but I consciously try to steer away from topics where, in the past, protracted conflict with no hope of resolution has been the result.

Still, a lot of people, it seems to me, go out of their way to pick these fights, and rehash the same arguments ad nauseum. What good does it really do?

I readily admit I’m probably as guilty of after-the-fact rationalization as anyone. I try to maintain a facade of open-mindedness, of being receptive to alternative viewpoints, but if you touch on one of my deeply-held beliefs (pro-choice, anti-creation-science, etc.), there isn’t a chance in hell of my mind being changed in the slightest. And I believe that most people are the same.

So again, I ask: What’s the point? I have some theories, but I’d like to see what the Dopers come back with first.

2

I suppose it depends on what you think a “big issue” is. Nobody is ever going to change their mind on something like belief in God as the result of a debate on a message board. But I am sure there are people who hold views based on what they think are facts, and change their views when better facts are presented to them. I can attest to a rethinking of my own political views as a result of this forum, both from posts and from sources cited here.

3

I haven’t changed my mind, but I’ve been forced to question my beliefs and understand them better.

4

I can’t say I have changed my views as a result of any debate on this board, but I like to think my mind is open enough that I can be convinced that I am wrong on a given issue.

As an example, I have done an about-face on the issue of capital punishment. I used to be a pretty strong proponent of the death penalty, but the combination of debates with friends, and the steady flow of wrongly-convicted inmates being freed from death row on genetic evidence, convinced me that I was wrong.

Also, I think few people in the middle of a heated debate are going to admit they have been proven wrong. Hormones get involved, and people don’t like to back down. Yet, I believe that after the debate is over, and the heat of battle has died down, folks do sometimes re-think their positions. It might not show up in an obvious way on the board, but I believe it happens.

Finally, I point out that there are a lot of lurkers out there, reading but not participating in the debates. (Including myself, many times.) Some lurkers may not have formed an opinion themselves, and for them, I think the debates serve the valuable function of fleshing out both sides of an issue, which may help them decide where they stand.

5

Two thoughts.

  1. I’m sorry but I don’t know who said this–I looked it up in Bartlett’s Familiar Quotations but it wasn’t there.
  1. In the year 1770, Samuel Johnson said, of an acquaintance, “That fellow seems to me to possess but one idea, and that is a wrong one.”

Cervaise, the three threads you mention all have one thing in common–they are very emotional topics. The average Man on the Street doesn’t get terribly worked up over Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer or the Buffy/Xena catfight, but try to take his gun away/give his daughter an abortion/tell him God didn’t create the world in 6 days flat, and you’ve got a fight on your hands.

To answer your OP, no, I don’t think anybody ever has their minds changed on these three subjects. Spoke mentioned the death penalty; unless you personally knew someone who was unjustly executed, I don’t suppose you’d be emotionally involved in a debate on it. That’s why you are able to admit that you’ve had your mind changed.

6

My mind has never actually been changed, but I have scene the other side of various topics more clearly, allowing me to have a better idea of how and why people do the things they do, and believe the things they believe.
It never matters for me whether there is a winner or loser, I think the exchange is worth it, as long as people can keep their wits about them.

7

Cervaise asked:

Yes. I have a friend who changed his mind on abortion due to debates on a computer bulletin board (this was a while ago). More recently, a reg here changed his mind about some issues related to libertarianism. I’ve also seen a couple people post messages about evolution who got good answers and said, “Ok, thanks” and then went to think about 'em (as opposed to creationist trolls posting the questions with no intention to ever deal with the answers).

I, personally, changed my mind about gun control and the death penalty largely due to discussions on computer bulletin boards (or, at least, starting there). In the gun control case, it was a number of years ago and I came into it with essentially the position held by my parents – not one I had constructed myself using good information. In the case of the death penalty, it was a case of seeing good arguments and then having that information backed up with information in the news.

Well, as I said, I know people do change their minds – if only occasionally. Also, though, there are all the people who may be reading but not participating. They may be on the fence and waiting to see what each side has to say. Often, they are the ones a debater is really trying to convince.

8

Hmm…kind of a silly question for an op…I mean, if it’s true, what would be the point posting it? Heh, I’ll respond nonetheless. So, as usual, I’ll make no sense: In response to the op, yes and no. One’s opions will change depending on the person- a weak minded or open minded person’s opions will changes much more freely than those of a much more tightly minded person. I’ve had some principals in which I beleived rahter feircly, until they were put to the question in a determined manner- I then realized that they basically didn’t make sense. So, I scrapped those ideas. There’s the yes. Then, there are thos who don’t listen to reason, and instead beleive what they’ve always told themselves is right, for one reason or another. So, again, yes, one’s opinions can change, but no, this or that person’s opion’s * won’t* change, given their personallity.
I get the feeling you’ll be very confused…

9

Maybe what it comes down to, is the terms being used here. One might indeed change their ‘opinion’ about something when confronted with facts that either contradict their belief or they face something in their lives that causes change.

‘Ideals’ however, aren’t as likely to change.

What’s the use of debate? Well, possibly to hone arguments, have interaction with those with very opposite ideas that you might not normally come into contact, and likely because, ‘it’s there’. Debate ought to, in its finest sense teach you to be able to state your ideals, opinions, ideas or suppositions in such a way as to be heard. Cursing, and name calling are worthless weapons, and yet are often used as intimidation, producing nothing, but making for some very bad habits.

This isn’t about changing, as much as it is thought provoking.It makes me look at what is effective and what is not, and then how to employ and use the most useful, and discard what is not.

10

I’ve often adjusted my opinions on an issue after reading a “Great Debate”. Sometimes I will go into a thread completely sure of myself and grow less confident along the way. Other times, I’ll be laying in bed, days after the topic has died down, and realize that I’m not sure which side I’m on anymore. Once in a blue moon, I even decide I was wrong! :eek:

11

What is your agenda? What is your goal?

Our success in the South has been in converting racists,
not condemning them. We always worked to give our opponents a face-saving way out.
–Andrew Young, SCLC

12

The opinions I hold have been formed over the course of time and experience. My mind has been changed on a couple of the Big Issues (for instance, I recently underwent a prety dramatic change of religion). I think differently about a few things now than I did ten years ago.

Things used to be so completely black and white. Now I’ve come to understand the “shades of gray” that, when I was a younger person, the adults always told me I’d have to face.

Since my mind has been changed in the past, I imagine it could be changed in the future. Show me evidence that the death penalty is always wrong, and I’ll fight against the death penalty. Show me evidence that guns are always bad, and I’ll fight against the Second Amendment. Show me evidence that abortion is never necessary, and I’ll fight to take the choice away.

I’m comfortable with the opinions I hold. But I’m always interested in hearing other people’s opinions, and hearing why they hold them. It’s damned interesting.

13

Good topic, Cervaise.
I was thinking about starting a similar topic strictly about gun control.
I used to favor gun control. I’m talking about arguing until my face was red. Well, maybe not that far.

But I changed my mind. What changed my mind was the Swiss.
Swiss society doesn’t have the violence problems of America. But, the Swiss have plenty of guns. And they know how to use them!

I realised that the problem lay inside American society, not inside guns. I still do not own guns, but concentrating on a symptom ( gun violence ) is not the answer. The disease must be treated. America must reclaim it’s cities! The Constitution must be…
( This is the sort of ranting that I was refering to earlier. )

But, I did not change my mind at the time I became aware of the Swiss example ( It was on a conservative talk radio show ). It happened later, when I was reflecting on it.

I hope this helps.

14

I think the reason is because people just want to know why other people think the way they do. Subconsciencely, they know that the other person’s opinion will not change, but consciencely, they wouldd like to know why that opinion won’t change.

And if the next question is why do they want to know why… then I would venture that by asking why, it exposes different viewpoints on whatever the issue is.

15

Cristi said:

Just curious: Why does something need to be always wrong before you will change your mind about it? What if (for example), the death penalty was wrong, say, 50% of the time and thus we were executing 1 innocent person for every guilty person. Would that make you change your mind? Or would it have to literally be 100% wrong?

(Not trying to get on a d.p. discussion – I could have just as easily picked one of the other things – but the way you said it made me wonder.)

16

I have. I used to be anti-gun, very pro-gun control (I bet that is a big surprise?). 8 or so years ago, a good friend showed me tons of facts, studies and logical arguments. I read through them, looked up some of my own and switched sides. I even went out and bought a gun. These days, as most of you know, I teach firearm usage in self defense.

I used to be very pro-death penalty. It was actually this board that prompted me to gather information on the death penalty. Doing so, has convinced me that our legal system and forensic system is too flawed to be used to justify taking a person’s life.

I can think of a few other examples. But anyway, to answer your question… yes, people can change their minds. Granted, there are going to be people who are too close-minded, but that is there problem, not mine.

17

Shit, I’ve had my mind changed back and fourth and inside out up the wazoo. Yes, these discussions and debates can make a difference, especially for the youngfolk with impressionable minds, such as myself.

It all depends on how stubborn you are, and how much evidence you are willing to ignore. After all, both “sides” usually want what’s best for everyone. They just have different ideas about how things should get done.

-JB

18

On some of the threads I have read I have not participated in as I either have no knowledge of the subject or my opinion has already been stated. The ones were I have participated I have got an opinion and thats all it is. My opinion is drawn from a million things which I couldn’t possibly try to detail but when I read through a debate and people put forward facts previously unknown to me then I will judge how true I feel the fact is from it’s source and the persons arguement up to that point. By gaining more facts on the debate topic,I then form a stronger opinion of the topic. This has sometimes been different to my original view.

19

Do people change their minds on the Big Questions? Sure they do. I have before (although not yet from a debate here; I’m still a newcomer.) I think it less likely that a single debate will cause the change per se, but it very well may help it along. When I began to question my religious beliefs it wasn’t exactly a snap decision after all. Going from believer to atheist was a process that took time and required a lot of thought and adjustment. And just because I feel I have arrived at a position that works for me doesn’t mean that I don’t still think about it. I mean, I believe, given the evidence for and against, that life after death is a fiction. I would certainly like to believe otherwise, just as I would like to believe I had a guardian angel watching over me. So I would be willing to be convinced I am wrong, even though it hasn’t happened yet. It would take a deal of convincing, just as it took a deal of convincing to get me to discard the beliefs I was taught growing up.

Even if nobody ever changed their minds, I have learned quite a bit by lurking and asking questions. Expositions on some aspects of Judaism in a couple of threads have been fascinating for someone like me who doesn’t have any Jewish friends to ask, and has never been exposed to much more than the surface beliefs of his faith. Also, it’s interesting to note what arguments/reasons others use in defending their postiions even if they don’t convince me. It helps me understand the other point of view, even if I disagree.

Finally, it’s fun! What a hodgepodge, motley mess of people post here! People of all stripes, with all different backgrounds post here, and the posts are often entertaining and witty, as well as informative.

20

I, for one, used to believe that Elian Gonzales should go back to Cuba with his father… now, I believe that Elian should be sent to Canada, where NOBODY’ll want him and NOBODY’ll care.

And don’t go dissin’ that “Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer” thread!! Consarnit, that’s IMPORTANT!