Better yet, they might not bother to come back, in which case a star is born.
Well, generally its true that the slightest harmful or offensive touching IS considered a battery. There are exceptions and affirmative defenses, and ejecting a trespasser is one..
Worked a couple years as security for an amusement park, forcible removal of a guest was pretty rare, maybe a dozen times, about half would posture and talk alot of shit but did not require “assistance” in locating or utilizing the exit.
Yes, very well. About the only thing not mentioned is other patrons.
If the drunk is threatening other patrons, or actually touching them (like stumbling into them) or throwing punches at them, then management & their bouncer can escalate the amount of force used to eject the drunk. In fact, they have a positive duty to provide a safe environment for other patrons, and can be sued by them if they fail to take reasonable steps to promptly eject the drunk from their business.
It’s not unheard of for a bar to be facing lawsuits from the drunk for ‘excessive force’ in ejecting him and at the same time from another patron for not protecting them from the drunk. Sometimes the other patron suing the bar is even a buddy or the girlfriend of the drunk!
The bolded part confuses me.
The security officer does not have to wait for someone else to initiate hostilities. For example, if I saw a shoplifter fleeing my store I could physically restrain them, even if they were not being aggressive. Likewise with throwing out a drunk. It’s my job to be the aggressor.
Now, it is correct that it must be reasonable and escalate in response to what the situation requires. Security personnel also have few protections against false arrest / detention lawsuits. But there is no rule that says the suspect must intiate physical conflict “first.”
I think you missed the “or” part of “and/or” in my statement, as we essentially said the same thing. I will try to clarify.
The bouncer would be justified in using physical force if the patron was the first aggressor or if there were some other reason justified by a totality of the circumstances (i.e. a refusal to leave the premises). In either or both cases, he would be justified in using force as long as it was reasonable. I certainly did not state that the bouncer HAD to wait for someone to initiate hostilities, but instead, that such a scenario would justify force. “First aggressor” is a doctrine covered under self-defense that precludes a first aggressor from asserting assault if he himself initiated hostilities.
Trespassing alone justifies the use of physical force to repel the trespasser, as long as the force is as a minimal as reasonably possible.
My brother was a bouncer and repeatedly tossed out people… Also hold in mind in alot of places it’s against the law to be drunk in public and a bar is a public place. I think they can ask you to leave and threaten to call the cops based on that. As far as throwing you out goes…it’s better for the drunk in some ways. At least he doesn’t get arrested if the bouncer does it
Exactly - context is everything. If I tap you on the shoulder to get your attention - nobody will convict me. If we are exchanging loud words, and I push your shoulder (classic “whaddaya gonna do about that?” move) that is battery. Even waving my arms near you during an argument may be construed as battery.
Politely and firmly suggesting a client leave the premises - and then simply taking hold of his arm when he repeatedly refuses, is not battery. Of course, if he struggles and tries to break the contact, more force may be appropriate.
However, the key is the “reasonable force”. A person who has refused to leave can be taken by the arm9s) and escorted out. You cannot punch or hit a person for verbally refusing to leave. If he then begins to swing or struggle, more firm force may be required. Punches can be met with stronger retaliation, but should stop when the resistance stops (and you should be able to show you tried to avoid the worst of the fight).
Someone in an argument pushing your shoulder does not give you the right to respond with a disabling boot to the gonads, unless you can show the court the size and power balance was so disproportionate (and the words strong enough) that a lesser response was not safe and running was not an option. Good luck proving that in court.
In any case, the defence against assault is showing you only gave a reasonable and proportionate response to defend yourself.
Bruce or Jet might be justified in laying out the bouncers if they came after him with baseball bats unprovoked - but not if they asked him to leave and then just took ahold of his upper arm. And of course, he refused to leave, which immediately puts them well down the right-wrong scale to begin with.
Restraining a shoplifter is a whole new and detailed topic - IIRC citizens arrest has had its own thread several times. Some states have very interesting laws that make it difficult to sue a shopowner for simply trying to protect their store. The short answer is, if you do a citizen’s arrest and hold someone for the police to arrive, you better be damned sure they actually committed a crime. Rule of thumb - if you did not see the crime, the shoplifting or pickpocketing, better to let someone else handle it.
Oh, and to relate to the OP - you better be sure any physical force in the arrest is proportionate to necessity.
Context and human nature here are everything. And that Patrick Swayze movie means nothing. Nor do any other fictional or hypothetical surmises.
In a neighborhood place, or a destination place with an intentionally “neighborhood” vibe, any employee of the place that ever manhandles or swings at anyone, no matter the provocation, is asking for commercial trouble, if not legal trouble. (Unless there’s a weapon involved.) Folks in a friendly place don’t like to see people mishandled. That’s an important context. I once tended in a “destination neighborhood bar” in a gentrifying neighborhood that hoped and worked hard to be integrated. Racial issues were always an inevitable undercurrent in the neighborhood, though. I had to usher out as quietly as I could a customer not of my own race, who was fortunately much smaller than I. As I got him outside, the owner and others of both races followed after us, to try to work things out. Then, out of the blue, the guy snuck a left into my right jaw. I didn’t have feeling in those teeth for decades, frankly. But he was grabbed, and I didn’t retaliate, and the others in the group got a sense of things. Then, just before closing, the guy came back into the place and rushed me as I was putting some stools up on the bar. Some of the earlier group were still working on things, and saw him rush me and swing a few times. I was fortunate that he’d since been drinking more, and I was able to grab his wrists eventually without getting hit seriously or taking a swing at him. But the viewers saw all they needed: This bar was committed to integration, and no one was going to take an opportunity to beat on someone else, even though the opportunity was fully offered by the guy. As I remember, even though he’d swung at me multiple times, he wasn’t banned, but he rarely came back in. He knew he had no credibility with his community leaders after that night. When I reflect on it, I think it’s one of the best moments of my life.
The other thing, is that in this sort of a place it is hugely likely that when an obnoxious or embarrassing drunk is asked to leave in a quiet, civilized, non-intimidating way, there’s almost never any hassle. It happens more often than casual customers realize in many places. That’s human nature. The person wants to be able to come back, or wants to be “friends” with the staff, or realizes their mistakes, and cooperates. Again, an example. Years earlier I was tending in a college bar in a small town, where, I’m sure to their consternation, two Hells Angels found themselves. I don’t know what they expected but we treated them well, as we tried to treat everyone. Sooner or later I knew we were going to have to cut them off, so I wanted to let them know from the beginning we were friends. So whenever I got a chance, I asked them about their bikes–trying to establish a good relationship. Yup, sooner or later came, and I had to say “My friends, you’ve had enough for one night. Let me help you.” I walked around the bar, got them standing, put my arms around their shoulders and got them walking. I started every sentence with “My friends” and ended it the same way. I got’em on their bikes and they rode away. Don’t know what happened after that. So that’s the human nature thing.
I can imagine a club scene in a big city where owners don’t expect to have many regulars, and an early evening very physical show of force might, might, (I’m not sure about this) deter things later, but, hell, a drunk is a drunk, and remembering a previous event from earlier that evening isn’t likely. It might be likely for their more sober friends to remember, however, which is always helpful. So that’s a different context.
Another context issue is whether one’s in a small town or a big city. In both, the local police want to be helpful to the business owner, but don’t necessarily like private security. They’d rather be called themselves. In New York, the Times doesn’t print an item every time the police are called to a bar for trespassing. In small town Minnesota, the local newspaper does. Soon the place is getting a bad reputation precisely because it is doing what the police request, instead of doing it themselves. So in a small town it’s even more important to learn how to handle things quietly, without the police.
And of course, the sooner a customer is cut off, the less likely they are to be trouble. Human nature again.
I can answer this. I was a bouncer.
I used to go back and get their things if I knew where it was. Required? No. But their belongings, possibly vital and precious, were not leverage with which to torment them.
If they were unruly enough, or events were otherwise crazy, they could retrieve them the next day, but bars being what they are, that often equated to “lost forever”.
Interesting and on the money cite (it is on Mr. T’s early career). But it took him one hour to put on those not-allowed-to-be-retrieved-by-bouncees gold chains and doo-dads? Puzzling, puzzling…
what if your told to leave but not given the time to even get out of your seat to leave. your just ripped out of your chair aggressively pushed in the back for about 25 feet as your willing walking out to then getting your hands grabbed to your back and then being tackeled causing you a concussion missing skin from whole left side of face elbows knees hands shoulders. yes I was drinking and cut off but was allowed to stay and sat there eating talking shit about volleyball when a comment was taken to far. as I walked out I was talking shit saying f this place and the people that work here but was willing walking out. Is that allowed and what if the person that did this was a manager not on duty and was drinking?
I’d say you deserved it for lack of paragraphs and capital letters.
Also for typing “your” instead of “you’re” repeatedly and for your ungrammatical user name, “want a answer”.
Sort of a nitpick… I don’t know about America (or indeed Scotland), but in England a person is free to pursue a private prosecution if the Crown will not.
Probably because most people find “I just got attacked” stories a little suspect. People generally don’t just go around attacking 280 lb guys for no reason. Your friend may have ultimately won, but without hearing the entire story, I suspect it didn’t just start with “I was standing here minding my own business when all of a sudden the wedding party attacked me.”
In the US, we have criminal and civil law. So while a bouncer may not have violated any criminal laws, a person can pursue a civil lawsuit against them, as in the case of auntlohimein’s friend.
Civil law also has the distinction from criminal law in that criminal law is based on preponderance of evidence (court decides who’s right) whereas criminal law is innocent until proven guilty.
Owned and bartended a bar for several years. It was a mostly local late night place - but in beach town with a lot of tourists. Didn’t have many problems - only had a door guy on nights we had bands. A few times a year someone (almost always an out of towner) would get in a fight. My door guy or some other regulars would get him out the door usually getting in a few good shots along the way. His girlfriend calls the cops and says we beat him up. The local cops tell them to get lost or they’ll get arrested. They often didn’t even ask me what happened and didn’t file any reports. They knew I ran a local favorite bar and didn’t serve the underagers and routinely had cabs lined up to take people home at the end of the night. The drunk tourist didn’t have a chance.
It was shtill happy hour…
I’ve personally seen bouncers drag drunks out and beat the crap out of them. My old apartment in the 80’s didn’t have a laundry. The laundromat I used was next door to a club in a strip mall. I went in occasionally for a drink while my clothes were drying. They had some rough bouncers. I felt sorry for anyone stupid of enough to give them any crap. Some of the beat downs in the parking lot were pretty chilling.
It was a nice club. The bouncers kicked out the drunks and it was a really nice atmosphere. They had a band with live music Friday and Sat nights. I talked a few times to the bouncers and they were nice enough guys. They just didn’t put up with any crap. When they told somebody to leave, a wise customer quietly left. That way nobody got hurt.
I never found out for sure. But I think the local cops were glad any problems at the club were handled by the bouncers. Saved the local cops a lot of hassles and paperwork.