I never thought I would see this fact pattern again.
What is up with Islamofascists trying to destroy the “debauched” culture that they seem to enjoy so much. I’m not religious and I go to strip bars about once every ten years.
So, the question is: Do these “Muslims” actually believe any of the crap that they spew about our culture?
If they do, how do they reconcile their beliefs with their behavior?
Keep in mind that this was told to a stripper while the guys were drunk. People do lots of stupid things while they are drunk.
Sounds like these guys might have just been drunk and making up bullshit to screw with the stripper. Which makes them, at the very least, morons of the highest order. I’d have reported and had them arrested as well. But the local police don’t seem to be taking this too seriously. We shall see.
But in answer to the going to the hell question:
1.) Watching strippers? Maybe not. There are modesty questions called into question, but the onus of that is more on the strippers. There are also questions of basic respect for others, so I guess it depends on what their behavior was like.
2.) Drinking alcohol? Edging much closer. Definitely forbidden if you’re devout.
3.) Flying a plane into a building? You betcha.
As to if the jihadists like the 9/11 terrorists believe that American culture is evil - Sure, they do. Are they hypocrites? Some of them, yep. Fanatics often aren’t the most clear-headed of people. However there are doctrines in some brands of Islam that allow for dissembling about your beliefs to prevent persecution - It may be that you could argue strip bars away as being “cover” for a more important “Holy Mission”. But I bet some of them are secretly hypocrites anyway. Just a WAG.
The ability to rationalize anything is a religious staple and has been for centuries.
But I think these particular clowns were just talking tough.
I know that a basic tenant of Christianity is that one must accept Jesus in order to be saved. Good works, though important, are not sufficient. Good behavior, though important, is not sufficient. So, I think, a Christian can be drunk in a strip bar and be “forgiven.”
Therefore, I wonder, what exactly are the “keys to heaven” in Islam? Is there a hell?
Tamerlane It seems that you may have some insight into the deeper religious issues here. Why would the strippers be at fault when there would be no market for strippers absent the drooling masses that make them wealthy? Also, what is the alcohol policy (for lack of a better word) in Islam? Is there a Sura that deals with booze?
As for “Holy Missions,” I think that staying at home, sober, would probably be more likely to result in a successful mission. Both before 9/11 and this time, people noticed the drunken behavior of the potential terrorists. The best “cover” is staying out of public view, I reckon. Although, I strongly suggest that all potential terrorists go out, get loaded, and run their mouths before acting. It’s the only way to be sure.
From the article:
Just thought I’d point out that these two particular chuckleheads weren’t necessarily “Islamofascists”, nor are their views of what is or is not permissible representative of Muslims in general.
Beyond that, isn’t a bit silly to use the apparent hypocracy of a couple of adherents as a foil against an entire theological system? If we surveyed the jails would we find that a particular religion is not represented? Just a couple thoughts…
Like tell the truth that you otherwise wouldn’t want to?
Beagle: Well keeping in mind that I’m no Qur’anic scholar, I’ll revise my statement on watching strippers. Modesty is called upon for both men and women - Gazing lustfully is definitely uncool. Muhammed purpotedly said ( I’m not sure if this is Qur’an or hadith here ):
'The zina (fornication and adultery) of the legs is walking towards an unlawful act, the zina of the hands is touching and patting, and the zina of the eyes is casting passionate glances at those who are forbidden to you.’
As for alcohol et al, there are four suras ( I think ) that cover this:
[*2:219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling: say `In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit’.
16:67 And from the fruits of date palms and grapes you produce intoxicants, as well as good provisions. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who understand.
5:90 O you who believe, intoxicants and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them that you may succeed.
5:91 The Devil wants to provoke animosity and hatred among you through intoxicants and gambling, and to distract you from remembering God, and from observing the Contact Prayers (Salat). Will you then refrain?*
CAN DRUNK MUSLIMS AT STRIP BARS GO TO HEAVEN?
Aren’t they already there? 
Tamerlane I searched under “alcohol,” “drink,” “wine,” and “spirits,” but came up dry (pardon the pun). I lost the link to my favorite online translation of the Koran (Qu’aran, Quaran). Thanks for answering that for me.
I find it interesting that gambling is mentioned. The U.S. is going through a gambling explosion (lotteries, new casinos, Indian reservations). Is there anything we do right?
Rhythmdvl - Islamofascists I have no idea if the guys in Texas really are dangerous guys. But, they represented themselves as being allied with radical Islam. I would consider U(O)sama Bin Laden an Islamofascist as he represents the most extreme repressive wing of the whole faith. Much as Christian Aryan Stormfront types represent the “Christofascists” on the other side. Similarly there are violent Zionist groups ;j. (sorry, I could not resist that) Violent Mormon groups I have not heard of - but I bet they are out there.
Also, word to the wise, do not joke or bluff about blowing up stuff. I don’t think many people LMFAO, LOL, or whatever, about that right now.
foil a theological system Whoa, Rhythmdvl I seriously am trying to figure out the “keys to heaven” bit. I have heard that dying for Islam as a “martyr” can get someone to heaven. This has no bearing, though, on other ways to get to heaven or ways which one can go to hell. Whatever hell may be in Islam. I am not really sure about religion personally. But I am flattered that you think I might be able to “foil” a theological system here in front of my monitor.
Also, I think that there are always many interpretations of any religion so it would be foolish of me to attack Islam generally. I have seen many moderate Islamic tracts on the internet which are peaceful, reasonable, and often sound better that stuff which comes out of the White House and the State Department.*
However, it still seems strange that the most radical (I think - Wahabism is pretty close) actual terrorists and these maybe wannabe terrorists would drink and lap dance for (or in front of) Allah.
*You would never know that from most of the quotes you hear on television. Most of these authors, unfortunately, had to flee to the United States. Freedom of speech being a little spotty in the Middle East and Central Asia.
Of course we (the U.S.) LOVE the Saudi regime, but, nevermind. That is waaay off topic.
Oops, I lost my little Orthodox Jewish man smilie - which is what I apologized for in paragraph 3. Strange, as it previewed.
Test Orthodox Jewish man smilie: ;j ;j ;j
Okay, but didn’t many of the actual Sept. 11’th highjackers engage in visits to bars and strip clubs immediately prior to 9/11? If they were to attempt to write some sort of cohesive argument as to why they were engaging in their terrorism, wouldn’t they probably condemn the morality of things like this and other aspects of American culture?
Assuming that Osama bin Laden really was suppporting the Sept. 11’th attacks, as I think we can safely assume, how do the individual actions of the terrorists jibe with the purported reasons for engaging in their terrorism?
Not as if any one on the boards is going to come in with Mr. bin Laden, the Sept. 11’th terrorists, etc., but if somebody could help explain this/play devil’s advocate?
Well, I’m pretty sure Muslims believe that you go to heaven if you’re a Muslim and try to follow the rules of Islam and avoid sin, or alternately, if you’re a person of the Book, and try to follow G-d’s laws as well as you understand them and avoid sin.
As for the “terrorists in strip clubs” thing, apparently, these people believed that they were going to martyr themselves and get to heaven that way, and so therefore, if they drank or went to a strip club, it wouldn’t matter. In other words, maybe they felt they were already getting into heaven so they didn’t have to act morally.
I’d call it a human rather than a religious staple, but your point is taken.