American League
C— Yogi Berra
1B— Jimmie Foxx
2B— Eddie Collins
SS— Alex Rodriguez
3B— Wade Boggs
LF— Carl Yastrzemski
CF— Ty Cobb
RF— Frank Robinson
RHP— Roger Clemens
LHP— Lefty Grove
reliever Mariano Rivera
National League
C— Mike Piazza
1B— Albert Pujols
2B— Joe Morgan
SS— Barry Larkin
3B— Eddie Mathews
LF— Tim Raines
CF— Duke Snider (edited. My original pick Jim O’Rourke played far more games in LF than CF).
RF— Mel Ott
RHP— Cy Young
LHP— Warren Spahn
reliever– no one
American League
C— Yogi Berra
1B— Jimmy Foxx
2B— Eddie Collins
SS— Alex Rodriguez
3B— George Brett
LF— Ty Cobb
CF— Mike Trout
RF— Frank Robinson
RHP— Walter Johnson
**LHP—**Lefty Grove
reliever Mariano Rivera
National League
C— Roy Campanella
1B— Albert Pujols
2B— Rogers Hornsby
SS— Ernie Banks
3B— Eddie Mathews
LF— Tim Raines
CF— Ken Griffey Jr.
RF— Roberto Clemente
RHP— Bob Gibson
LHP— Sandy Koufax
reliever Trevor Hoffman
I may have taken a few liberties with OF positions…
American League
C— Yogi Berra
1B—Frank Thomas
2B—Eddie Collins
SS—Cal Ripken Jr.
3B—George Brett
LF—Carl Yaz
CF—Mickey Mantle
RF—Frank Robinson
RHP—Walter Johnson
LHP—Lefty Grove
relieverMariano Rivera
National League
C—Gary Carter
1B—Albert Pujols
2B—Jo Morgan
SS—Ozzie Smith
3B—Eddie Matthews
LF—Pete Rose
CF—Duke Snider
RF—Roberto Clemente
RHP—Tom Seaver
LHP—Steve Carlton
Reliever–Billy Wagner
American Leaguers:
C - Yogi Berra
1B - Jimmie Foxx
2B - Derek Jeter
SS - Cal Ripken Jr.
3B - George Brett
LF - Carl Yastrzemski
Cf - Joe DiMaggio
RF - Frank Robinson
RHP - Walter Johnson
LHP - Lefty Grove
Rel - Mariano Rivera
National League
C - Roy Campanella
1B - Albert Pujols
2B - Joe Morgan
SS - Ozzie Smith
3B - Chipper Jones
LF - Tim Raines
CF - Duke Snider
RF - Mel Ott
RHP - G.C. Alexander
LHP - Steve Carlton
RP - Bruce Sutter
AL
C – Yogi Berra
1B – Jimmie Foxx
2B – Eddie Collins
SS – Alex Rodriguez
3B – George Brett
LF – Ty Cobb
CF – Ken Griffey Jr.
RF – Reggie Jackson
RHP – Walter Johnson
LHP – Lefty Grove
Reliever – Mariano Rivera
NL
C – Roy Campanella
1B – Willie McCovey
2B – Joe Morgan
SS – Ernie Banks
3B – Eddie Matthews
LF – Willie Stargell
CF – Duke Snider
RF – Mel Ott
RHP – Bob Gibson
LHP – Warren Spahn
Reliever – Trevor Hoffman
As we wait for further nominations to come trickling in, perhaps this would be an opportune moment to explain some rationales behind this Hall of Fame setup. The idea is a rejection of the in-or-out concept that agitates people so much, and in my view so unnecessarily. To my mind everyone has his own personal cut-off for who should be in and who should be out, and even a middle ground for players who might go into either category.
So what we’re doing is setting up a Hall of Fame built from the top down like a pyramid, if you will, or like a series of concentric circles, or perhaps like a galactic spiral, in which the very center, the very peak, is occupied by an elite few and each succeeding level is both larger and slightly less brilliant than the one that preceded it.
The idea is to make no one’s inclusion or exclusion into an insult or an honor. It is no insult, for example, to rate Willie Mays as the second-greatest player of all time, or Mike Schmidt as the seventh-greatest player of all time. No one on the list below is able to claim that he is clearly superior to the player ranked above him.
Now at some point, perhaps a half dozen or a dozen steps further into the process, all of us will want to say “This is where my Hall of Fame stops." Perhaps that point for you is around player number 200, and perhaps for me it’s around player number 300 but we should be able to reach some consensus as to whether those two players are considered equal or unequal in terms of their ability. For those who favor a big Hall of Fame, player number 500 is fully qualified. Personally, I think that Dick McAuliffe, or whoever player number 500 turns out to be, needs to buy a ticket to get into Cooperstown but I have no problem with him being judged the five hundredth-best player in Major League history.
It’s possible, even likely, that we will make some mistakes or omissions or oversights or impulsive choices in creating our hierarchy. But I will try to compensate for this likelihood very soon with a short series of questions concerning our choices to date. What I’d like to do is open the floor to nominations of those who have been categorically overlooked in our selection process, Negro Leaguers, Japanese players, 19th century stars and other categories so far overlooked, as well as giving you an opportunity to place the players already chosen higher or lower In the hierarchy. I’d also like to vote to resolve ties in the voting if possible.
Ruth
Mays
Bonds
Williams
Gehrig- Aaron
Schmidt
Bench - Wagner
Randy Johnson
Musial- Mantle- Henderson
Jackie Robinson
Someone put Derek Jeter into the 2B slot a few posts above, note, even tho he never played a single inning there. And Ty Cobb as a LF in another. So what are the rules for putting someone in the wrong position? I considered Goose Gossage for the NL relief slot, but he did have more value when in the AL-would he have been disqualified if I had?
American Leaguers:
C - Iván Rodríguez
1B - Jimmie Foxx
2B - Eddie Collins
SS - Alex Rodriguez
3B - Wade Boggs
LF - Carl Yastrzemski
CF - Joe DiMaggio
RF - Frank Robinson
RHP - Roger Clemens
LHP - Lefty Grove
Rel - Mariano Rivera
National League
C - Gary Carter
1B - Albert Pujols
2B - Joe Morgan
SS - Ernie Banks
3B - Eddie Mathews
LF - Pete Rose
CF - Duke Snider
RF - Mel Ott
RHP - Greg Maddux
LHP - Steve Carlton
RP - Trevor Hoffman
@RickJay , was this inadvertent or intentional?
I’m hoping these things will sort themselves out (i.e., that RickJay’s vote for Jeter will be wasted) or will be dealt with at a future re-consideration stage.
If a Doper hits his personal in-out level, would they be justified to list a blank slot at the given position(s)? Do we have the ultimate choice as to who gets in, or does the OP’er? If 75% return their CF slots blank, but Jim Edmonds gets the plurality of remaining votes, does he get in? [Note I think he got screwed by the BB HoF and deserved further consideration, just an example for the sake of argument]
The way I’m imagining things, you’d be better off to vote for someone’s placement in the Hall of Very Good than not to cast a ballot at all. But sure you can leave a blank. The whole idea is to leave who’s in and who’s out up to individual voters. I’m sure I’ll vote for some of my favorites, if we ever get there, to be placed at #500 in this Hall, and I’m even surer that few people will consider that a true HoF level.
That was me. I probably should put him in RF and Frank Robinson in LF, just for a “46 games in left probably isn’t cricket” sort of argument. It was me trying to game the system a little to both Cobb and Trout in on the same ballot.
That was a copy and paste error. It should have been Eddie Collins.
Noted.
Me, too. Wanted to get Junior in there, and I had thought that Cobb had at least a couple seasons in left.
Not meaning to insult anybody, and speaking purely as another poster, not claiming any special status as the OP here, but this is kind of what I was trying to address with “reasonable and knowledgeable” students of the game. My idea was that people would try to be objective and let the game play out, so we’d see who a small, not entirely representative, group would select as Hall of Famers under the system put forward. I’m not looking to criticize anyone for their choices or their strategic decisions, but I hope we can avoid attempts to game the system.
One could, for example, vote for all Yankees in a somewhat legitimate attempt to pack the Hall with Yankees, or for all Negro Leaguers to make a statement about the unfair process of the actual HoF, or for all shortstops playing every position as a way to say that defensive skills are overlooked, and I don’t feel right commenting on these choices, since I agree that the Yankees are a great franchise, that Negro Leaguers haven’t gotten a fair shake, that great defensive players do sometimes get neglected, and i want people to vote as they see fit.
But I did set this system up to encourage people to vote not only as they personally feel about their nominees, but also to bear in mind how others will probably vote. That was why I voted for Bonds in the first round, though I would rather vote for him to spend a month in the stockade. I thought, “Yeah, I expect Bonds will get support from a lot of fans, and will probably get in early on–no sense in voting against him to see if I can finagle the voting so that he gets in #8 instead of #3.” Later on (or now) we can discuss whether Rose and Bonds and Joe Jackson and McQwire and Clemens should be in the Hall at all (it’s a tedious discussion for me, but I’ll get into it if people want to). I’d rather upgrade Cobb later on if we feel that he suffers unfairly from competition with other star CFers than force him into the lineup in LF (where he played fewer than 2 games per season) but it’s up to you. The system is designed, I think, to marginalize oddball personal choices so it doesn’t really have much effect if one or two people follow a personal agenda rather than a sense of justice here.
So feel free to game the system, but I wish you wouldn’t. If you have a goal here, other than voting for the most deserving HoFers, it ought to be “Reasonable and knowledgeable students of the game will respect this ballot” rather than “I want to force Player X onto a higher spot in the rankings than most other voters think he deserves.”
Again, just one fan’s opinion.
I don’t disagree, but while I am enjoying this exercise, one thing that’s become obvious to me is that it’s hard for me to compare old players that I’m not overly familiar with (Tris Speaker, Eddie Collins, etc.) with players I have watched in real life. At the top of the pyramid it’s not that much of a challenge but as we get further along it’ll become more difficult.
American League
C— Yogi Berra
1B— Jimmie Foxx
2B— Nap Lajoie
SS— Derek Jeter
3B— Edgar Martinez
LF— Carl Yazstremski
CF— Ken Griffey Jr
RF— Reggie Jackson if for no other reason his clutchness in the playoffs although he did illegally hip that ball into right field.
RHP— Pedro Martinez
LHP— Whitey Ford
reliever Mariano Rivera
National League
C— Roy Campanella
1B— Willie McCovey
2B— Joe Morgan
SS— Ozzie Smith
3B— Chipper Jones
LF— Pete Rose
CF— Joe Dimaggio
RF— Roberto Clemente
RHP— Christy Mathewson. I am going to keep putting him down when I can. I know there is a lot of bias against dead ball era pitchers but looks at his stats, he dominated his era.
LHP— Sandy Koufax
reliever– Trevor Hoffman
Just to make things clear on my part:
was not me saying I wanted to get Junior in the HoF, but rather in my list. I realize I’m rating him higher than most others, but not in an effort to game the system.
Yes, “recency bias” is definitely something we’ll run into. It doesn’t trouble me as much as perhaps it should because while I think any bias is bad, especially bias based on one’s own personal preferences, I also think it’s true that more recent players are superior to older players, due to better, more varied competition (from black and foreign players primarily) and improvement in rules and equipment that make success harder. But taken too far, recency bias can definitely work against old-time players in general, so I’ll need to include some questions to work older players, particularly 19th century players about whom I know very little, into the nomination process in a way that’s fair to everyone.
The problem here, I think, is not that you rate Junior as highly as you do but rather that you felt the need to squeeze Cobb into your voting. You seem to think that Cobb deserves being in at a high level, but you also want Junior as your fourth-best CFer. (Or maybe third?) Cobb in LF may be plausible, or arguable, but the reality is that we’re choosing only so many centerfielders so far, and you want one more voted in now. Like I say, it’s arguable, but it is a kind of gaming of the system. Maybe I should have a question that disregards leagues, positions, etc. and just asks for nominees in whatever category you like, though I’m afraid that voters will take that as an invitation to nominate their personal sentimental favorites. No harm there, I suppose: if you want to nominate Jose Oquendo, it’s unlikely that he’ll get any votes other than yours.