Can Iraqi hearts and minds still be won? Pentagon's own report says no.

Great Debates
1

Here’s the original, in a long PDF.
Quotes/discussion by the Sunday Herald (a Scottish paper; one wouldn’t expect any such discussion in the tame US mass media) here:

Wolfowitz adds in an appended note

Think of *that * for a moment.

This is of course nothing new to those of us who predicted essentially this before the war, and were derided as unpatriotic and shortsighted and worse because of it. There is no bitterer toldyouso conceivable, nor is it escapable anymore.

But is the Pentagon report right? Is there any way to salvage a future out of the current situation, as long as those who got us into it are still in charge and still convinced that staying the course is the right approach? Our government’s actions here have a broad, if certainly not dominant, support from the American people; is there any way to convince the Muslim/Arab world community that we’re better than that regardless of who’s in charge of our policies? Please convince me there is still some hope of some success here.

2

The only hope of success is to make some radical changes in policy including the immediate removal of US forces from Iraq, apologizing to the Iraqi people, turning over American war criminals (including GWB) for tribunals and contributing massive amounts of money for reparations.

We also need to quit subsidizing apartheid in Israel, demand that they return to their pre-1967 borders and hold their feet to the fire on their human rights abuses.

Terrorism is a hydra. We can’t kill our way out of this problem, we have to remove the root motivations for the hostility. We have to start treating the Muslim world as peers and knock it off with all the insulting, superior bullshit.

I don’t have much hope. The comic, Patton Oswalt, put it well when he said that “Bush doesn’t just want to be president…he wants to be the last president.”

I think Bush believes he’s living in the endtimes and that he’s living out some sort of Messianic, Armageddon fantasy. It’s going to get worse before it gets better.

3

:rolleyes: I don’t remember the ANC having a free press, or right to vote for their leaders in the occupied territories of the African Savannah.

Apartheid my ass.

One thing people always tend to forget,

Non-Jews have the right to vote and run for office.

Or!

Or how in several court cases, the Israeli courts have ruled in favor of Arabs in regards to rights to live in overly-Jewish neighborhoods.

:confused: Wait is this country not practising Apartheid??

4

Radical changes are necessary, but not the immediate removal of US forces. What is needed is to first get an actual, legitimate international coalition in there. Changes in tactics must also occur. Strategic bombing and area attacks have to cease.

I disagree with reparations per se, but large amount of grant aid must be given to rebuild infrastructure. Rehiring and rebuilding of Iraqi bureaucracy must also occur.

I disagree slightly. Aid to Israel isn’t so much a problem, but that aid must come with restrictions on returning to the Green Line and fair distribution of water resources with the Palestinians. A lot of aid must also be given to the newly created Palestinian state in order to build real infrastructure.

5

Not saying I disagree with you on the broad feeling exposed, but to be realistic none of the above is ever gonna happen. First of all, no way is immediate removal of troops a good idea - it would only lead to further death and chaos and would result in Iraq never having any chance of becomming stable. Second, apologizing to a people means you did something wrong, which our administration and over 50% of our population doesn’t agree is the case. Third, War Criminals only come from countries that loose wars, not win them, so the chance of GWB or anyone from his adminstration being sent to the hague to be prosecuted is slim to none.

I think we need to bring in the UN, lead by Muslim nations, and step back our support for lunatic regimes like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, and make our stance on Israel more even-handed, and after that stay the hell out of the Middle East where people don’t want us anyways! Second to this would be to dramatically reduce our dependence on foreign energy supplies, especially oil.

Of course this might displease Haliburton and Big Oil, but I really think those idiots can go hang themselves from the nearest lamp pole.

6

What makes you think the UN taking over will have this grand change? Don’t you remember that the UN headquarters in Iraq was car-bombed by the insurgents (freedom fighter. terrorist or whatever you want to call them)?

7

Traditionally, this has required the urgent assistance of citizen committees, formed on an ad hoc basis. The application of such to business men in suits does not fit the accepted mode, but might well be worthy of consideration.

As to the idea of immediate withdrawal, I must confess myself divided. Six months ago, I would have said “no” unequivocally, for the same reasons outlined above: chaos, civil war, etc. On the other hand, I recognize that if we cannot make any real headway, we may be merely postponing the inevitable, at great cost and to no good purpose.

But even were I to come to this conclusion, there isn’t a chance in Hell that the Bushiviks would admit defeat and get the Hell out of Dhodge. They will need some kind of fantasy, akin to the “transfer of sovereignty”, so that they can publicly proclaim success. But what public relations wizardry would be required to transform Little Big Horn into a victory?

8

It won’t change the minds of the current insurgents, but it may help calm down the non-insurgents and make them not jump to the pro-insurgency side as quickly.

9

Bullseye. I am not talking about making the current bunch of terrorist / insurgents / freedom fighters happy, as I doubt anything would. I am talking about a solution where the US can get out, while at the same time minimizing the impact of such a withdrawal, and at the same time minimizing the hatred from the Muslim world of US actions by not making us into further baby killers.

10

I’ve seen some reports suggesting that there’s a growing comprehension in the Pentagon, if not in Rumsfeld’s head, that our presence is now the biggest obstacle to peace and stability there (though of course not the only big one). We, and our native collaborators, are getting attacked at a still-increasing rate because of our occupation per se, no matter our actions, although those are certainly an aggravating factor.

No greater conceptual disconnect would be required than the one that already exists. There are certainly enough Americans who think we’re winning something there who would be convinced by a declaration of victory, the ones of us who don’t wouldn’t care about the words as long as it happened, and the rest of the world understands the need to save face anyway. It is not impossible that Bush would actually believe it was a “victory over terr’ism” anyway.

The bulk of that report is about improving the effectiveness of Administration propaganda, domestically as well as in the Arab world, and it’s remarkably direct about it.

11

Can Iraqi hearts and minds still be won?
No.

12

Fine then. If the galling prospect of watching an entirely bogus victory celebration, with GeeDubya glowing in triumph, to the rousing cheers of the ignorant, maybe a top-selling country tune about our glorious heroes. I will surely puke my guts out, but if that’s what it takes to get our people out of The Shit, then fine. OK. Just get it the fuck over with.

Kinda reminds me, saw John Wayne in The Green Berets again for the first time in about thirty years or so. Once again, I am awestruck at the insidious power of propaganda. Check it out, if you’ve not seen it, think of it as an inoculation, a mental flu shot. Might help you be alert to the techniques of selling a Bright Shining Lie.

13

Didn’t they already have one?

14

May I be cynical?
Thank you.

From the point of view of the Bush Administration, their decision to invade Iraq worked at the recent US election.

Every US casualty in Iraq can be portrayed as the result of a ‘cowardly terrorist attack’ (probably by some ‘foreigner’).
Therefore this Administration is actively ‘fighting terrorism’.

Anyway, why would you need to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people? They don’t vote in US elections. :rolleyes:

15

I disagree with you. Take this thread and this board for instance the U.S.A. carriers all the blame for the Iraq war. Where is the mention of Britian or Spain or any other country that supported the action?* These countries are basically held blameless for the Iraq war becuase they went to war at the behest of America. Any killing of civilians, accidental bombings or other fuck up thats bound to happen will be blamed on the U.S.A. regardless of the nationality of the soldier that was responsible. The only way for the U.S.A to begin to mend fences over Iraq is to take responsibility for its actions and do all it can to ensure that Iraq becomes a prosperous democracy. If we do transfer power to the U.N. and Iraq improves all the credit will go to the U.N. and the U.S.A. will remain the villian. All transfering security of Iraq will do is to remove America’s ability to restore its image and to change the flag on a bunch of body bags.
*I don’t disagree with the fact that the U.S.A. is almost entirely at fault for the Iraq war. I just used the example to illustrate my point.

16

Perhaps you didn’t hear about Al Qaeda’s Madrid train bombings, or the Bali bombings targeting Australians, or the frequent attacks on British troops in Iraq.

You’d rather Iraq stay a hellhole than let anyone else get any credit?

17

Depends on what you mean by “right”. In what way right?

To me all their talk about the ME and the Arab view on the USA etc. is really not such a prime example of intelligent observation.
It is on the contrary obvious to anybody that these remarks - brought up as such a great observation from the US side - only show once again the limited knowledge (I don’t even talk about a beginning of insight) of the US about that region, about the Arab street… And about Islam and the force that can be drawn from Islam by anyone who has the skill and insight to play into the sensitivities and underlying feelings of the moment in a certain group or society.

History shows that most of the time this tactic was used by peopel (individuals, groups, governments) who only needed the influencing into support or agreement of theIslamic populations to further their own dubious goals.
Now that would be an approach useful for the US to learn.
Yet I am (with very much reason) uncurable sceptical that this would ever come to their mind. It asks far too much deviation from their self-centered, arrogant, war mongering and patronizing brains.
Coming into the Muslim mindset in order to use the force of Islam is something that alien to Westerners that I don’t think anyone in the current US administration could even come to the idea. Add to this that the USAZ has now The Great Christian Leader in charge and re-elected him. The Great Prophet Bush who communicates with God on how to deal with the Evil in the Middle East.

What course?
Furthering the geostrategical and economical interests of the USA by invading and occupying nations, building there large military bases with permenancy of the US military presence as ultimate goal?

Sadly enough, yes.

I’m afraid not. The US populations just re-elected a lying, cheating, war mongering simple minded clown who is the strawman of those who are really in charge of the bloodthirsty imperialist US administration.
That is what the USA communicates to the whole world.

Take me as a good example. I am of dual Arab/European blood. I was raised with all the benefits and influences of both my Arab and EU background. I studied at both Arab and EU universities and hence learned to see through double focussed lenses at both my region and the Western world.
There was a time where I could see clearly the good things of the USA, as there are many, just like there are many good things in other nations.
It was not my task to point out the flaws of it to my US friends or whomever I encountered of US origin. It is the task of a citizen to look beyond rethorical patriotism and mindless flag waving.

Then came 9/11 and I witnessed the emergence of the arrogant stupidity that became the hallmark of Bush and his criminal crew, and how it gained support all over the USA.
More then ever was the case in my short stay on this earth I witnessed a most blatant display of US ignorance combined with arrogance and refusal to accept that there are other worldviews (we don’t even talk about nations) besides the USA.

Nobody who ever studied a little bit on the history of mankind and of Empires more specific, needs a guide to be able look right through any government rethoric and claims of moral superiority over the scape goat that becomes its useful enemy.
It seems to me that a majority in the USA never has seen a history book from far or nearby. They swallowed the rethoric, the flag waving, the doom scenarios, the Red alerts, the duct tape, the criminal invasion of nations…, as if they were eating heavenly manna. Mindlessness, fear and hate became the rule of a whole flag waving nation.
Those who opposed that mindset and demonstrated against it became painted as supporters of terrorism upto traitors. Demonstrations in the USA against the invasion of Iraq was more covered outside the USA (including the ME, and especially there to calm down the populations) then in the US itself.

Yet there was still some credit stored in my mind, ready to be distributed direction US population. Because - as many opponents of Bush have already said it on this very message board - one can not forsee what a president shall do when he enters his first term.
There is no credit left now.

If I talk to my family, friends or no matter who I am in contact at home, or to my family, friends and others in the EU, the reaction is the same.
The USA has no credit left. Not in the Arab mind, not in the EU mind, not in the world’s street minds, not in the world’s government’s minds (the Saudi clowns and other US puppets in the Islamic world aside).

What succes do you have in mind?
What moves on the Arab street was often and more or less in opposition to what was mainstream thoughts in intellectual and business circles. That is no longer the case. Nobody trusts the USA.
And I can write already a book about the difficulties the mindless arrogant US attitides I have to deal with. In professional and business interests both.
The latest example is the stubborn refusal to do something to counter the fall of the dollar. Well I rather would loose money in a mindless casino game. Then you have at least the fun of the gambling.
Playing with fire is fun as long as you don’t get burned yourself. I do hope very much it bites the USA seriously in the long term. I don’t say this because I want the US citizens to get drowned in a recession, and that would hurt me as much as it would hurt them. Yet one part of my mind is very much longing to see the US face bankrupcy and start panicking.
I wonder how much nations they then have to invade to get hold of its natural resources with wild dreams about creating the occasion to shape these societies for introducing US Capitalism.
Salaam. A

18

All done by Iraqi insurgents?

I said that where?

19

Does it matter?

Right where I quoted you.
aldebaran, I’m going to have to disagree with your hope that the US gets humbled here. The effect won’t last long (or Vietnam would have taught us), and it will be blamed on others anyway (as Vietnam still is).

20

I really can’t begin to improve on what Aldebaran wrote. I wish I could apologize to the rest of the world and to Iraq in particular for what our ignorant leader has done. Bush has made wounds that will take generations to heal. The only consolation is that the Bush election was neither honest nor a mandate.