Can it sometimes be patriotic to wish defeat on your own country?

[elucidator]

@Ravenman

…I find it hard to reconcile the concept of “patriot” with that of “coward.”

Why? If cowardice is a character flaw, does it preclude all virtues, even assuming that patriotism is a virtue? Is it impossible to concieve of a miserly patriot? A gluttonous patriot? Is the nation one reveres significant? Is an American patriot more righteous, more virtuous than one who kills for the glory of Albania, or Greater Serbia? Is patriotism more desireable than religious convictions, which have also writen more than their share of the history of human misery.

Patriotism is not a virtue, compassion, patience, those are virtues. All anthems are lies, all flags are lies, all prayers for victory are blasphemy. I love America the idea, the revolution in progress, not some geographical coincidence.

How much human suffering might have been avoided were it not for the curse of patriotism?

[LouisB]

@elucidator

I’m old enough to remember them. I was one. The constraints of GD permit only that I suggest that your opinion is in error. Since you have, admittedly, no first hand experience, one has to wonder on what basis you form your opinion. And of course suggest that prejudice and ignorance are rather poor bases for such opinions.

Well, you beat me to it. I protested in Oakland and in Berkley back in the day. Well said.

[Ravenman]

@elucidator

Why? If cowardice is a character flaw, does it preclude all virtues, even assuming that patriotism is a virtue?

Whoa, there. I must have struck a nerve! I don’t think one can be a hero unless one has courage. I don’t think one can be a leader if one lacks vision. I have a very hard time believing that one can fairly be called a patriot if one is a coward.

In my book, not everyone who likes their country should be called a patriot. Just like not everyone who serves in the armed forces is a hero. If your version of a patriot is someone who sits around and complains about what a dump his country has become, and isn’t willing to get off his ass to change it, then sobeit. But he’s no patriot in my book.

Is it impossible to concieve of a miserly patriot? A gluttonous patriot? Is the nation one reveres significant? Is an American patriot more righteous, more virtuous than one who kills for the glory of Albania, or Greater Serbia? Is patriotism more desireable than religious convictions, which have also writen more than their share of the history of human misery.

I don’t care if a patriot is a pennypincher or fat. George Washington was a world-class miser, and Ben Franklin was a fat fuck. Each country has its own patriots, even patriots who never killed, and I can respect that, even if I don’t agree with them. And I don’t know what religion has to do with anything. Did you read the OP?

If you have some suggestions about historical figures who were patriots and cowards, then please list them. I’d be happy to reconsider my position based upon the strength of reason, not some rant against the concept of patriotism.

How much human suffering might have been avoided were it not for the curse of patriotism?

And how many noble causes would have been abandoned had there been no patriotism? Would the United States exist today but for the patriots to a new country? How many would have risen to fight against aggression in World War I and tyranny in World War II? Yes, patriotism can be misused, but it can also be noble.

[New_Iskander]

@BrainGlutton

What about my hypothetical Russian patriot? Might it not have been patriotic for him to wish death on Soviet Army troops in the field – including, perhaps, some of his own closest relatives – if that would lead to the ultimate victory of the West and the liberation of his own country?

I can attest as a factual Russian patriot, I celebrated Soviet defeats and losses in Afghanistan and elsewhere, because I honestly believed it will be for the good of the country.

There was a long Russian intellectual tradition of wishing defeat on Russian gov’t, summarized by the slogan, “The worse the better!” About the middle of XIX century, Pisarev (very influential Russian publicist) postulated that any military defeat for Russia leads to more social activity, soul-searching and freedom inside the country, while any military victory leads to internal crackdown on freedom. From that POV he argued that victory over Napoleon was bad for Russia, while losing Crimean war was good, because it lead to loss of gov’t prestige and many social reforms, including abolition of serfdom.

So I think it is indeed possible to be a patriot and wish your country to be defeated in battle somewhere.

However, this brings up a very important point. Those Russian intellectuals and revolutionaries desired extensive structural changes in the whole Russian gov’t and political system. To repeat after xtisme, what changes in US system do you desire?

[Jake_the_Plumber]

Depends what you define “your country” as. It could be either the current administration, or the basic fundamental ideals that form the groundwork for our government and society.

I’ll take the latter, thanks, and to quote Ani DiFranco, I am a patriot.

[rjung]

@John Corrado

or, from Michael Moore’s own website:

The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not “insurgents” or “terrorists” or “The Enemy.” They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow – and they will win.

Maybe I’m nitpicking here, but I don’t see how that quote equates with “wishing death to American servicemen,” or anything close to it. Moore is simply pointing out the POV that the “insurgents” in Iraq are folks who, from their perspective, are fighting for their country against a foreign power. And “winning” is a vague term that covers anything from the withdrawl of American forces to peace talks that produce results they’re satisfied with. Where’s the anti-patriotism here?

[New_Iskander]

@Ravenman

I do not believe that it is patriotic to sit back on one’s couch, in the safety of house and home, and effortlessly wish death on one’s own countrymen in the hope that it might “teach someone a lesson.” If a cause is so dire that the death of one’s compatriots may be required to achieve it, one should also be willing to risk their own lives for that cause. I find it hard to reconcile the concept of “patriot” with that of “coward.”

Thus thought all the tyrannicides. But what about a regular citizen, whose only desire is to lead a normal private life?

[Ravenman]

They can be good citizens. Nothing wrong with that. We could sure use more good citizens. But I think of patriots as those people who distinguish themselves as great citizens.

And, as Will Rogers said, someone has to sit on the curb and clap as the heros walk by.

[GomiBoy]

@John Corrado

From this thread:

If you were referring to wild-eyed reactionaries on this or any other message board, give me a few hours and I could flood you with cites. I thought you wanted something more definitive. Apologies there. Oh, and BTW - rfgdxm sure as hell doesn’t speak for me. Ryan_Liam speak for you?

@John Corrado

or, from Michael Moore’s own website:

I see your Michael Moore and raise you an Ann Coulter. Or even Rush Limbaugh. Some of the things he said about Clinton during the Bosnian war were pretty damn nasty as well.

[XT]

@GomiBoy

I see your Michael Moore and raise you an Ann Coulter. Or even Rush Limbaugh. Some of the things he said about Clinton during the Bosnian war were pretty damn nasty as well.

Do you have a cite from either Coulter or Limbaugh stating that they wished the US to be defeated or even “deeply wounded and humbled.”? I’ve never heard even a peep that either of they expresses such sentiments. Now, they may have attacked Clinton…in fact, I’m quite sure they did during and after his presidency (I never really listen or watch either of them, but its a safe bet anyway). But you saw his MM and raised him an AC and a RL…so we need to see your cards here. The original question was " Can it sometimes be patriotic to wish defeat on your own country?", so lets see some quotes.

-XT

[Paladud]

I think there is a very major distinction between wishing defeat from within on the Soviet Union and the US. The primary purpose of a national government is to look out for its people. If said government consistently harms its own people, it is quite patriotic to wish it defeat elsewhere if the defeat may bring about a change for the better in this government. If it does not consistently harm its own people, it is not patriotic to wish that it is defeated in an external conflict, regardless of the morality of the involvement in that conflict (or the absence of any morality, as the case may be).

[New_Iskander]

@Ravenman

…as Will Rogers said, someone has to sit on the curb and clap as the heros walk by.

So, to be a Patriot, one has to take an open stand. If so, Limbaugh and Moore are the greatest patriots, and tiny me just a coward, for example. Certainly, posting on SDMB doesn’t count as taking an open stand, on account of using a disguise. But wait, I do express my honest opinion openly to a handful of people, who sometimes care to listen after more interesting subjects are exhausted. Does that make me an itty-bitty patriot, may be?

[borschevsky]

It can be patriotic to wish defeat on your own country if you believe that the defeat will prevent a larger disaster. Apparently some people hold the belief that an American military defeat in Iraq would end up saving American lives in the long run, perhaps by reducing anti-Americanism abroad, or by keeping the US from involving itself in future military actions. If this is an honestly held belief, then I think it can be described as patriotic.

The logic is actually quite similar to the justification for the current war - a willingness to sacrifice the lives of American soldiers in order to save other Americans in the future.

[Acsenray]

What is a patriot? Obviously, to some posters here, it’s an honourable appellation, not to be conferred on a coward. Actually, why not? A coward is someone who is afraid to take physical risks. Why would that preclude love for one’s country?

It’s also seems to describe some degree of excellence. The problem, from my point of view, is that any definition of “patriot” is either going to be too general or too personal.

I could come up with a conceptualisation of “patriot” that to me would sum up would be in my view incorporate positive characteristics. And I’ve done so in the past.

But really, I’m getting tired of the whole thing. I find that whenever I encounter the word “patriot,” the speaker is incorporating ideas that I disagree with, some that I find repulsive. It’s much more satisfying to me to ignore the word completely. I have little interest in figuring out who is a patriot and who isn’t. It’s a pointless classification. It’s become a word that is nothing more than a political weapon, a tool of demagogues.

It is not treasonous, nor even quasi-treasonous, to express an opinion or a wish. Period.

Every American soldier is my sibling? The ones who tortured innocent boys and old men who were grabbed randomly off the streets of Baghdad. Are they my siblings? Are they more my siblings than their victims are? Who is being killed in my country’s name? Who is being tortured? Who is being deprived of home and family and security? And how many of these people, however vile or stupid their opinions about religion or politics might be, are on both sides of the line? Aren’t they all my fellow humans?

Right now I don’t trust my government to do what’s right. I just don’t. I don’t trust a single word coming out of their mouths. They are mendacious, vile, cruel people who are exercising lethal power to act in my name. I don’t know what to believe about what the real dangers are and don’t know what to believe about what is really the right thing to do. And I don’t know whether they even hold their office legitimately. I no longer have any confidence that the vote I cast, or the vote my family members and friends cast, were counted fairly. What should I wish for? What really is the difference in whether I wish “we” win or lose? Will fewer people suffer because of my wish? Will the future be better because of my wish?

I want my government to do what’s right and I want as few people as possible to suffer, I don’t care what their nationalities are. Now tell me what I should wish for and why I should believe you.

[Jake_the_Plumber]

@borschevsky

If this is an honestly held belief, then I think it can be described as patriotic.

I think you make a good point here - being patriotic doesn’t mean being right. You can be very wrong about something, but if you’re still passionate about it and your country, then you could be said to be a patriot. Not the kind of thing anyone wants to hear, but I think that’s the truth.

[GomiBoy]

@xtisme

Do you have a cite from either Coulter or Limbaugh stating that they wished the US to be defeated or even “deeply wounded and humbled.”?

<snip>

But you saw his MM and raised him an AC and a RL…so we need to see your cards here. The original question was " Can it sometimes be patriotic to wish defeat on your own country?", so lets see some quotes.

-XT

Nope, I don’t. I tend to not waste too much of my limited time on blowhards from either the right or the left, to be honest, and absolutely refuse to give them any money.

But John doesn’t have one from Moore saying the US should be defeated, just that the insurgents will win. Vast difference there.

The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not “insurgents” or “terrorists” or “The Enemy.” They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow – and they will win.

Operative phrase being ‘they will win’ not ‘the US should be defeated’. Sounds like he’s reporting his view of the facts, not secretly hoping the US loses.

[Bricker]

@jsc1953

I think their effect on your memory is out of proportion, also. As I recall, there was ONE bombing in the anti-war movement of the 60s – at the University of Wisconsin, IIRC. I could be mistaken. But the violence was in the streets during protests. Random terrorism was not a part of the fabric of the 60s.

/hijack

You remember only that one?

an explosion rocked the headquarters of the U.S. State Department in Washington, D.C. No one was hurt, but the damage was extensive, impacting twenty offices on three separate floors. Hours later, another bomb was found at a military induction center in Oakland, California, and safely detonated. A domestic terrorist group called the Weather Underground claimed responsibility

Cite.

Mark Rudd was the SDS Chairman and Ted Gold SDS Vice Chairman was always by his side. Ted Gold was killed while making the bomb in the West 11th Street brownstone.

Cite.

And a whole list:

• 1969: October, Chicago. Bombing of Haymarket police statue to remember the Martyrs.
• 1969: December, Chicago. Bombing of Chicago police cars in retaliation for the murder of Fred Hampton and Mark Clark.
• 1970: May, Washington D.C. Bombing of National Guard Headquarters. In retaliation for the killings of anti-war protesters at Jackson and Kent State Universities.
• 1970: June, New York City. Bombing of New York City Police Headquarters.
• 1970: July, San Francisco. Bombing of Presidio Army Base and Military Police Headquarters.
• 1970: August, Marin County. Bombing of Marin County Courthouse in retaliation for the murder of Jonathan Jackson, William Christmas, and James McClain.
• 1970: October, Long Island. Bombing of Long Island City Courthouse in solidarity with the current New York prison revolts.
• 1970: October, Harvard. Bombing of the Harvard College war research Center for International Affairs. ( W.U. Women’s Brigade)
• 1971: March, Washington D.C. Bombing of the US Capitol in retaliation for the U.S. invasion of Laos.
• 1971: August, San Francisco. Bombing of the Department of Corrections in retaliation for the assassination of George Jackson.
• 1971: August, Sacramento. Bombing of the Office of California Prisons in retaliation for the assassination of George Jackson.
• 1971: September, Albany. Bombing of the Department of Corrections offices in retaliation for the brutal assault against the Attica
Prison uprising.
• 1971: October, Michigan. Bombing of William Bundy’s office in the MIT research center.
• 1972: May, Washington D.C. Bombing of the Pentagon in retaliation for new U.S. bombing raid in Hanoi.
• 1973: May, New York. Bombing of the 103rd precinct of the New York City police in retaliation against the murder of Clifford
Clover.
• 1973: September. Bombing of the ITT Latin America Headquarters in retaliation for the U.S. backed coup against the socialist
government of Chile.
• 1974: March, San Francisco. Bombing of the Federal Office of Health, Education, and Welfare. “ In the accompanying communiqué the Women’s Brigade argues for the need for women to take control of daycare, healthcare, birth control and other aspects of women’s daily lives.”
• 1974: July, Pittsburgh. Bombing of the executive headquarters of Gulf Oil for its brutality and greed in areas such as Angola and Vietnam.
• 1974: September, 11. Bombing of the Anaconda Corporation ( part of the Rockefeller corporation). This bombing was retribution for Anacondas involvement in the coup that put Pinochet in power in Chile.
• 1975: June. Bombing of Banco de Ponce ( a Puerto Rican bank) in support of the Puerto Rican struggle for self determination.
• 1975: September, Salt Lake City. Bombing of the Kennecott Corporation for its connections to Pinochet in Chile.

All from here.

Nor is that list complete. If you think the leftist protestors of the sixties were busy putting flowers in gun barrels, think again.

[GomiBoy]

@GomiBoy

But John doesn’t have one from Moore saying the US should be defeated, just that the insurgents will win. Vast difference there.

By ‘John’ I meant John Corrado, of course… apologies, John.

[Ravenman]

@New Iskander

So, to be a Patriot, one has to take an open stand. If so, Limbaugh and Moore are the greatest patriots, and tiny me just a coward, for example.

Some may call those two patriots. I don’t care very much about them. There’s something to be said for patriots having integrity, too, which color my view of those guys.

Certainly, posting on SDMB doesn’t count as taking an open stand, on account of using a disguise. But wait, I do express my honest opinion openly to a handful of people, who sometimes care to listen after more interesting subjects are exhausted. Does that make me an itty-bitty patriot, may be?

Now you’ve put me on the spot! I don’t wish to offend! But in my book, even the folks who take to the streets, risking arrests or beatings by the cops, have a better claim on the term patriot, whether they are protesting a war, urging equal treatment of all races, or hastening the end of a tyrannical regime. Talking to one’s friends doesn’t really strike me as standing up for one’s country. By that measure, damn near everybody is a patriot, which I think takes the value out of the term.

[elucidator]

@Bricker

…Nor is that list complete. If you think the leftist protestors of the sixties were busy putting flowers in gun barrels, think again.

Well, it depends on the day. Monday was the day for injecting marijuana, and smoking LSD. Tuesday was spit on the returning troops day. Wednesday was anything can happen day, and so on.

Tell you what you do, Bricker. You go and create a mass political movement and absolutely assure than no jerky assholes attach themselves to it. When you’ve done that, come back and lecture us on how it should be done, OK?