Can lonesome polecats' charges be debunked?

The BBQ Pit
121

Kind of like banging my head against a brick wall, but why not…

Is there anything that a beauty pagent contestant could say that would be so bad that you think it should mean she does not win the honored and respected title?

If for example, a contestant was asked “What would you like to see done to spread world peace?” and she answered “I’d like to see Hitler’s work completed and all Jews exterminated - only then can the world be in peace,” would you accept that reducing her points would be acceptable behavior on the part of judges?

I’m going to now assume that you do (though assuming that might be a little bit of a risk). Given that, the question is what views can be the cause of lowered points and which shouldn’t be…

Bottom line is that you, and those who are complaining about poor Miss Prejean’s ‘punishment’ don’t think legal discrimination against homosexuals is a big deal, so you don’t think someone should be punished for expressing it. However, what you don’t realize is that there is a diversity of opinion on this point. While those of us who think enshrining bigotry in the law is a bad thing accept you have the right not to care about it, we also have the right to our views.

A tipping point is being reached in this country. In the past, racism was publicly acceptable. A liberal who would call someone out for making a racist comment at a party would be seen as making a social faux pas. But times changed, and a tipping point was reached when throwing someone out of a party for racist comments moved from being socially unacceptable, to socially acceptable, to socially required. The same thing is happening as regards gay rights, and about time too. You’ll always have the legal right to be hateful towards homosexuals, but as time moves on, there are going to be more and more social situations where expressing that hatred and support for discrimination makes people think you are, to be honest, an utter whackjob. It’s already got to that point in many areas. Someone got told in my local bar last week if he didn’t shut up about faggot-this and faggot-that he’d be asked to leave; he left anyway. I’ve asked (Eagles) fans to stop using homophobic slurs at Redskins’ players because my son was there, and got support from everyone else sitting around us…

So the tipping point is close. You’ll always have the right to hateful and bigotted views. I’ll even fight for that right for you. But homophobia is becoming socially unacceptable, like racism, and anti-semitism. And about goddamn time too. If being glad that people aren’t putting up with it any more makes me intolerant, then I guess I can live with being intolerant.

122

Depends on what you mean by “support”. Do I support someone’s right to hold a bigotted opinion? Yes. But I’ll be damned if I’m not going to call someone out for expressing it.

Just because “well, that’s my OPINION!!!” doesn’t mean a person doesn’t have to deal with the consequences of expressing it. I can walk up to some guy on the street and tell him he looks fat in that suit. Crying, “well that’s just my OPINION!” isn’t going to save me when he calls me (rightly) a fucking bitch.

123

And cheer up, homophobes—there will still be plenty of places where you can move where gay marriage is illegal, homophobia is out in the open, and homosexual acts are criminalized. I hope you enjoy hot weather, because most of them will be in the Middle East and Africa.

124

You’d also be wrong. My favorite suit is about the only think I don’t look fat in, thank you very much.

125

And you believe this is exactly like saying you are not in favor of gay marriage? Don’t you think you might, perhaps, be over-reacting just the teeniest bit?

Actually, I think this is what you are missing.

The problem, allegedly, with Prejean’s statement is that it is “divisive”. There is (despite all the tantrums and screaming) no consensus on gay marriage, even in Ms. Prejean’s home state of California. Just the opposite, in fact - a recent referendum seems to indicate that California as a whole agrees a bit more closely with Ms. Prejean than with Hilton.

Who said you didn’t?

Oh, that’s right - no one.

No, I am actually arguing on principle, a concept with which you may or may not be familiar.

It is sometimes annoying, sometimes amusing, to watch people make assumptions about what I think, especially when those assumptions are wrong. But, as I say, I argue on principle, so that, even if I support an outcome, I do not support achieving that outcome by illicit means. YMMV - in fact, I suspect it does.

Regards,
Shodan

126

Would you care to articulate said “principle” for the sake of enlightening us, then? Can you?

127

So you’re not just a lying piece of shit, you’re also a stupid, lying piece of shit. I never said the two things were exactly the same. In fact, if you had bothered to read what I said, I said…

So clearly I am saying that we all agree some views are so extreme as to make it legitimate to score people down for them - the argument isn’t whether no views should be treated like that, but what views should be treated like that.

Are you too stupid to understand that, or did you instead deliberately misrepresent what I said?

No, as I said, I acknowledge there is diveristy of opinion on this. But that doesn’t alter the fact that those who oppose gay marriage are wrong. There isn’t a legitimate argument for opposing it (there is a legitimate, though flawed argument for saying it isn’t constitutionally required, but there is no legitimate argument for supporting it being illegal). Those who oppose it do so out of bigotry. I chose not to associate with racists. The time has come for many of us to view homophobes in the same way. I find it extremely difficult to consider those who oppose gay marriage as friends these days, because it is a view based on nothing but bigotry.

Acknowledging divergent opinions doesn’t require acknowledging the divergent opinion to be equally worthy of respect. Your opinion isn’t. On anything.

The problem with it is that it is based on bigotry. I don’t give a shit if every person in the world but 4 held it, it would still be based on bigotry. Racism wasn’t “right” when it was the majoritarian view. And while there is no consensus on gay marriage, we are getting there. Hatemongers are dying off. You are going to lose this.

Principle? You? The man who will make up quotes and then lie for pages trying to weasel his way out of it? I don’t think you would know principle if it came up and lamped you one in the nuts.

128

You can claim to support gay marriage, just not the way it is being gone about - is that the principle you are talking about? Problem is, I won’t believe you. I believe that from some right wingers, both here and in real life. But the problem is, you lie.

And more importantly, that’s not what Prejean said. She viewed same sex marriage as wrong. And that it what makes her a bigot, not a martyr.

129

And losing a beauty contest hardly counts as “martydom” to me.

130

Amber lamped?

131

Not commonly used here in the Great Satan, I believe.

132

Well, that was another problem with The 1/2 Hour News Hour and conservative humour generally - a lot of it hinges on “I’m laughing at how stupid you stupidly assume I am” and the laughter strikes me as forced and hollow. I guess it’s like someone saying “You make me laugh” in a dead-serious tone.

133

Okay, so you post at me and then claim you don’t believe me.

That’s fine - the problem you mention is not mine. If I couldn’t handle being trolled at by idiots, I wouldn’t have lasted a year on the SDMB.

Regards,
Shodan

134

Never saw the show myself, so I am no judge.

But the failure to find it amusing when your own ox is gored does not seem to be limited to one side of the aisle or the other.

Regards,
Shodan

135

So … the “principle” you claim to be arguing on really is “Buttsex scares me”.

Thought so.

136

And even that’s only because you can’t see yourself from behind.

I suppose you would have had to learn how somewhere.

137

Almost nobody did, hence its failure, but excerpts are available on YouTube. I daresay it might improve your cred if you watched some of them and ventured an honest opinion.

True, but there’s more to it - does one merely find it unfunny, or does one claim the goring was an insult, an attack, an example of unAmerican thinking?

138

In the past I was willing to extend to you the presumption of honesty. When you were caught being blatantly dishonest about Clarence Thomas, I was no longer able to extend you that presumption. It would be foolish of me now to have a default position that what you post is the truth - if I can check it, I will. If I cannot, I have to take it with a rather significant pinch of salt.

139

See, the joke is it’s a half hour show… but it’s called the “News Hour”! Get it?

No, really, just think about it for a minute…

140

Also, Michael Moore is fat.