Talk to any 12-step group and they’ll tell you she needs savin’.
I call BS on this… Just shows you have already made up your mind… ( you have been to how many different group 12 step meetings? )
Just as the lady way back at the beginning who said they would not leave her alone as just a driver for her friend. She needs to name the group to one of the local Calif. recovering alcoholics so they can go see this . If more than one or two idiots in the group and really was everybody in the group who was acting this way and were doing this, I would really really like to see the group. It would be so unusual that it would become really well know in AA circles… If it was a closed meeting, that means for alcoholics only, then they should have asked her to remain outside while she waited. If it was an open meeting, then I really wonder about the whole group badgering her about being an alcoholic. If any of the old crusty guys around here pulled something like that, they would get landed on by 15 other members the second time they said anything out of line to her.
Just because there is a few exceptions in self classification that SEEM in contradiction to the millions of recovering alcoholics, does not mean that everyone should run out and reclassify themselves.
I wonder why you care? If you convince an alcoholic that they really are not one, that means they are now normal and can go out and drink like you can. Do you really want that responsibility? If they are like 99.9999% of all recovering alcoholics, they can’t do that.
Once again, why do you care what we think about ourselves? What ever we do to keep ourselves sober should be encouraged, not discouraged.
That is BS. Absolute BS. In the 12-step groups I go to there is a standard answer given if someone asks the question “This is what I’ve done when drinking, this is how much I usually drink. Am I an alcoholic?”. The standard answer is, “You might be an alcoholic. Go try and drink in a controled manner. Try and drink like a normal person. Have a drink with dinner and stop at one. Have a drink or two with friends and stop. If you can stop you are not an alcoholic. If you try to drink one drink but cannot stop and get loaded even though you only meant to have one drink, then you probably have a problem. If you only want to drink on weekends but end up drinking everyday, you probably have a problem. If that is the case we will be here, you know where to find us.”*
Also, a large number of the alcoholics I know did not go through DTs (hallucinations, seizures, convulsions). When I quit (and I drank ~2 cases of beer a day for years) I had very minor hand tremors for about a week. I didn’t have any appetite. I was extremely anxious (batshit is a better term) for about 2 months. I couldn’t sleep. My body was all wacked, high BP, high heart rate, etc. But I did not go through the classic DT’s. Thank God.
Ravenous Lady, just because someone drank heavily in the past does not make one an alcoholic. The biggest clue that you are an alcoholic, in my experience, is what drinking did to your life. I had many friends that I drank with for years. We would drink together daily at parties or the bar. Somewhere along the line most of them decided that they needed to go onto other things, like getting married, having kids, a carreer, etc and stopped drinking. They decided that other things were more important than drinking, or decided that drinking was causing too many problems, and focused on other things. They aren’t alcoholics, they were heavy drinkers (though one of the people I used to hang with did end up a ful blown alky. He got sober before I did)
I couldn’t do that. I ran my life into the ground because drinking was the most important thing. I had major psycological withdrawl issues. When I was drinking getting the next drink was the only concern.
So there is a distinction. Not every heavy drinker is an alcoholic while every alcoholic is a heavy drinker.
Slee
*Like every other group on the face of the planet there are some jackasses in AA. I have met AA people who jump on anyone who drinks and calls them alcoholic. I have met AA people who think that anyone who ever drank is an alky. I have met people in AA who want to outlaw alcohol. I have met AA people who are petty vindictive jerks. I have been to meetings with these people and have never gone back to those particular meetings. On the brightside, most people in AA, like most people everywhere, are good, decent people.
Look…I was being a little sarcastic here because I’m not a fan of AA. But I can tell you that there are plenty of people in AA who are there because the state told them to be and not because they answered any diagnostic questions for themselves. There are people whose personal definition of an alcoholic is much more liberal than the next guy’s, and they still have to live within society’s definition of an alcoholic. So it’s not just “how it affects your life”. Nor is it always “anonymous.”
There was a discussion in another thread a while back, and the topic of binge drinking came up. Some people said that you couldn’t be an alcoholic if you binged once a year. I said that if the drinking is uncontrolled during the one time a year, i.e., a four-day bender from Dec. 31st to Jan. 3rd, you are probably an alcoholic. What about if you drink occasionally and on one of those days you get a DUI? Are you an alcoholic then? How about if you drink all the time but are “functioning?” Maybe your wife is pissed because you’re too tired to anything “social” that she wants to do, but you go to work every day, pay the bills, and take care of the house? What about the person who gets really irritable after one or two drinks? How do you think your particular AA group would respond to these scenarios?
The point I’m making is that alcoholism and its effects vary from person to person. There are some kinds of drunks, like my husband’s uncle (who, incidently, has been drinking like this for the better part of 60 years and is collecting a pension from the Chicago Transit Authority – he was a bus driver), who will be labeled “alcoholic” by everyone. But there are millions out there who fall into that gray area. One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor. It is often not a personal decision to decide whether or not you’re an alcoholic, and it’s nearly impossible to pin down what an alcoholic actually IS.
User != addict
A user is someone who uses. An addict is someone who can’t stop using (at least while they’re an active addict.)
Then there’s the whole confusion over “use” and “abuse”. “Abuse” can mean “using to the point of messing yourself up” or “using inappropriately” or “using any amount of illegal stuff, no matter how small and how little damage it causes, even once.”
One glass of wine is not abuse - unless you’re talking about Prohition, where it is abuse because it’s illegal.
Users can give up their “poison” with no problem and no assistance. Addicts can’t.
IANAA, but I’ll take a stab at this anyway, using the diabetes analogy.
Everyone who eats something has their blood sugar go up, everyone. The thing is, since I’m not a diabetic, my blood sugar will go back down again in a manner described as “normal”. Even if I was to do something silly like eat a 1/2 pound of powdered sugar my blood chemistry would be derranged for only a short period of time.
A diabetic, however, does not have a normal control mechanism. Their blood sugar goes up and stays up - it may vary, but it’s outside of normal. And this is and will be the case forever more.
With careful management, a diabetic’s level of blood sugar may be brought back within “normal” range, but this is a balancing act that requires constant maintenance, and as soon as you stop maintaining the blood sugar levels creep up, damage is being done to various organs in the body, and this applies even if you can’t directly see the damage.
I might “use” sugar heavily for years and years and then, on my own, decide to give it up and eat a very heavily managed diet. That does not mean I am or ever was a diabetic. On the flip side, you could have someone who has always had the best possible diet on the planet who then, one day, becomes diabetic. Although there are risk factors that help identify who is more likely to become diabetic, including family history and body weight, there are people with craploads of risk factors who never develop diabetes and others who appear to have no risk factors at all who do get it.
OK, let’s look at alcohol/drugs - everybody who has a bunch of beers in one evening gets drunk. The difference between non-alcoholic and alcoholic is that the non-alcoholic moans through the next morning’s hangover and then goes back to a normal life. The alcholic doesn’t - he or she tends to get drunk and stay drunk as long as the booze holds out. Sometimes even after the booze is gone they’ll stay drunk - I knew a guy who used to drink rubbing alcohol to help stay drunk.
Someone who drinks a lot then gives it up with no problem is NOT an alcoholic - they’re a normal person who drinks a lot. Just like a non-diabetic who eats a lot of sugar every day, then one days decides to stop doing so, is not a “recovering diabetic” but a normal person who made a dietary change.
And, again, there can be a lot of risk factors - family history, exposure to mind-alterning substances, patterns of use - but there are people who have a long list of risk factors who have not and never will be addicted, and other people who have no history whatsoever in their families and appear to be at low risk who crash and burn.
Substitute any drug for “alcohol” and the same applies.
And just as, once diabetes sets in, it’s for life, so is addiction. Even if you catch diabetes early and you’re fortunate enough to have a case that can be controlled by weight loss and a diet change alone you are still diabetic and you will still have to be careful the rest of your life to monitor your illness to keep it in remission. If you slip up, your blood sugar will rise and your body will be damaged. Likewise, not every alcoholic/addict has to hit bottom and lose everything, but no matter where in the addiction they put the brakes on, no matter how long ago that was, they are still an addict. Call them “an addict in remission” if that helps you, because it does express the idea that “there’s a problem, and right now it’s under control, but it’s not gone”.
Here’s some food for thought - Qadgop expressed that, sitting in his wonderful life right how, he’s still plagued by those nagging addict thoughts of “this would be even better with chemical enhancement!” Me, I could be sitting there looking at Lake Michigan (living just about a hundred miles south on the same lake) and if I thought about “chemical enhancement” at all it would be along the lines of “this is too good a thing to ruin by having a beer and fuzzing out my senses”. And that, I think, it a pretty good example of the differences between an addict - no matter how long sober - and someone is is not an addict. It simply would never occur to me to pop a pill to enjoy a sunset more - but once someone is an addict, that thought never goes away.
Good post. However, the difference remains…there is a specific point at which someone is considered a diabetic. There is no such thing with alcoholism. At what point do you consider yourself (or does someone else consider you) an alcoholic? One person says that if you have withdrawal symptoms, you’re an alcoholic. Another says that if it affects your life negatively you’re an alcoholic. A third person will say that if you stop for a while but then resume, you’re an alcoholic.
Many, MANY people would consider RavenousLady an alcoholic, even though she considers herself a former alcoholic who can now drink socially with no problem whatsoever (which goes against everything we’ve been taught about alcoholism). Sometimes I drink to major excess. Other times, one or two glasses of wine is fine for me. I can go through periods where I want to drink two or three times a week, and other times, I will go weeks without wanting a drink. A diabetic is a diabetic when their blood sugar level reads a specific number. That simply doesn’t happen with alcoholism.
Kalhoun - what’s your beef with AA? Tell me you are not one of those people that drinks socially, yet sometime, somewhere, someone in AA called you an Alcoholic and you now hate all people who partake of AA to get help for their addiction? Clarify if you would.
Not true. Besides the line that drawn between diabetes and non-diabetes is an arbitrary one, and the grey area between those distinctions is labeled “glucose intolerance”.
There’s less unanimity of thought as to where the line is between alcoholism and non-alcoholism, and there’s thousands of people drawing the lines where they think it should go. But most of those people agree there are 3 areas: Normal drinking, problem drinking, and alcoholic drinking.
To me, a person has a high likelihood of being an alcoholic when they frequently: drink despite significant negative consequences from drinking, drink when they had planned not to drink, drink more than they planned to drink, drink in a situation where not drinking was by far the best choice. There’s lots of other diagnostic criteria out there for use by the ‘professionals’ but the above rule of thumb can be helpful.
And yes, some people cannot be turned into alcoholics or people with chemical dependency. One can make them physiologically addicted to alcohol or other drugs, but the disease of addiction cannot be forced on them. These people, when detoxed, can go out and drink normally, use prescription meds without problems of abuse, etc. etc. etc. Just like I can make a person’s blood sugar go up to 400 by giving them IV glucose, but me doing that to them won’t make them a diabetic.
Otherwise I won’t hang around to argue about AA other than to say AA saved the ass of this agnostic who’s quite suspicious of Western religion; and evidence-based studies show AA works better for the hard-core alcoholic than other methods. Nor do I want to split hairs about definitions.
I’ll just say that as an AA member, I say to newcomers: “Hey, if you want what we have, come and partake; if not good luck to you, and I hope your way to health and success works for you. But if it doesn’t, we’ll still be here.” If my local AA group didn’t evince this same sort of attitude, it wouldn’t be a group I went to.
My recovery is a daily reprieve based on my spiritual condition. Each day I strive to live closer to my ideals by living more honestly, more kindly, more patiently, more generously. I learned this via my mutual support system. Some days I succeed better than others.
Another beautiful day on the lake, so I’m gonna enjoy it.
Qadgop - I just want to say you are an inspiration. Especially for someone so new to AA such as myself. Thank you. Seriously.
One thing that I have learned is that one cannot intellectualize oneself out of being an alcoholic.
Okay, just so we’re clear on this: I understand that all the stuff I’m bitching about here appears to work for some people. I personally find the dogma self-deluding, ridiculous, and even insulting on some levels. I have no clue as to why anything aside from the comaradarie of socializing with non-drinkers would aid in bringing sobriety to anyone, but I recognize that a lot of people swear by it. You don’t need to defend yourselves, but please don’t try to sell me on it.
My problem with AA is The Big Book and the attitude that you are somehow “giving” your addiction problem to a sky pixie rather than attaining sobriety on your own. I mean, if this were the case, AA would work for everyone the first time they sought to get straight. I dislike the 12-steps because they imply that you have character flaws over and above your problem with alcohol. I dislike the fact that the state mandates this religious organization as the only acceptable tool with which a person can obtain sobriety (and as such, crosses out the second “A” in AA). I dislike the catch phrases. I don’t believe they are helpful and in my view, turn AAers into Stepford Drunks ™.
The only person who can get you sober is you. I know a ton of people are going to chime in here and say that no, they COULDN’T get sober on their own, and that AA did it for them. We will have to agree to disagree on that point.
Again, I’m all for people finding a better life for themselves in whatever way they can. But it ain’t the only answer to the riddle.
Comaradarie - thats it Kalhoun, that’s what people get from AA. That and an organized methodology to quit drinking and stay off the sauce. It really doesn’t matter if you put your faith in God, Buddah, or the tooth fairy, as long as you are honest to yourself about fixing a problem YOU perceive you have. It is totally individual. If you can do it on your own, congratulations, there are many of us who can’t.
Thanks for your clarifications K.
Can Ms Love really be pregnant by Steve Coogan, as is being reported over here?? It seems most unlikely…
(He’s a British comedian, by the way. 3 or 4 of you may have seen him in last year’s “Around the World in 80 Days”.)
Time for me to bow out…
This is a very basic, and common, misunderstanding of how the program works. Yeah, in Step Three, you do “turn it over” to a higher power, but if that was all there was to it, there wouldn’t be any more steps after that one. You have to do the rest of them, too, and those involve making some serious changes in your life and your thinking. To me, turning it over simply means that I become willing to accept guidance from a higher power in doing the rest of the steps. Many people are unsuccessful in the program because they’re not willing to do the work involved in the later steps.
Why is a self-assessment so bad? I haven’t met a whole lot of drunks who didn’t act like jerks while they were drinking and hurt people along the way. If you get to the personal inventory and can honestly say that you don’t have any resentments and haven’t done anything you need to make amends for, congratulations!
As GusNSpot has already pointed out, that is not AA’s doing. I’m personally very conflicted on the idea of the courts mandating attendance at 12-step meetings, because it goes against some very fundamental principles of the program, but I’ve also known a lot of people who’ve gotten sober through being court-ordered, so it can do some good. In either case, that’s an authority’s doing completely outside the program, so you can’t blame AA for that.
Eh, whatever. My opinion on the slogans is there’s a nugget of truth to each one, but if that’s all you’re hearing, you’re not paying attention. There’s a hell of a lot more to the program than that.
The Big Book itself says that the AA program isn’t for everyone, and I can understand feeling resentful because there’s so much emphasis put on 12-step programs of recovery, but that’s really because, as QtM has said, they work better than any alternatives anyone’s yet come up with. But if you do find that something else works for you, that’s great; the important thing is kicking that addiction.
It also provides a type of peer pressure that can be useful in modifying behavior. Although we usually associate “peer pressure” with bad habits and bad ideas, social expectations can also be used to instill and maintain positive behaviors.
I agree that the courts are sometimes to ready to force people into AA - but back when I worked in the “recovery” industry I also saw people ask the judge if they could go to Rational Recovery (which eliminates most of the “sky pixie” stuff you object to while retaining useful stuff from classic 12-step programs) or Nation of Islam groups (not an organization I particularly care for, but their success is about as good as anyone else’s) or other organizations providing addiction recovery. Judges did not always, but often enough did consider these requests and grant the person in question their choice of program - the emphasis here being they have to be in a program of some sort.
AA is a good fit for the majority of people in the US because the majority of people in the US do believe in “sky pixies”, as you put it, and most folks in the US have a Judeo-Christian background.
One size does not fit all in drug treatment and it’s nothing at all unusual for a person to require several attempts to achieve long-term sobriety and along the way try several different programs before getting to the one that “fits”.
Sure, it’s an act of will that keeps a person from the bottle or the pill – but why do you have a problem with someone seeking out help? If my car breaks down I don’t go to the library, check out a Chilton’s manual, and attempt to teach myself car repair, I go to a mechanic. I can’t do major engine repairs on my own - I don’t have the knowledge, skill, tools, or work area - but I can find someone who can help me get my car fixed. No one denies I had a car problem, or tells me “you didn’t really get your car fixed” because I didn’t do the repairs all by myself.
Or if that’s not organic enough for you - if I break my leg I don’t let it heal on its own or try to set it myself, I go find a doctor who can do the job properly. Getting something fixed isn’t always a matter of doing it solely on your own, sometimes it’s a matter of getting the help you need.
Continuing that line of thought, I am in an experimental Harvard Medical Study for addiction. The purpose of the study is to take people like me with a substance abuse problem and give us additional tools to fight the addiction. A core part of the program is twelve, two hour group therapy/educational sessions with some of the leading addiction experts in the world. The sessions cover different topics related to addiction and recovery.
Even with all that expertise, the researchers merely hope to add something in addition to the AA model rather than replace it. Our attendence at AA meetings is tracked as part of the study and encouraging us to attend AA is considered one of the biggest strengths of program.
Well, I personally am rather proud of the label “recovering alcoholic”, as are most people I divulge it to. Especially when I mention that I am 15 years into it. Using the term to describe myself is #1 or #2 on the list if you were to ask me to tell you about myself. That huge life-style change still affects me today, and by labeling it, I make it a rememberance of what could be if I fall. While I was drinking I was an extrovert, a lot of fun (so I thought) and easily made friends wherever I went. If an activity were to not provide alcohol, I’d bring a flask. For Og’s sake, I had screwdrivers in my cup at my highschool election nominations (can’t remember what that’s called now…delegations?). I also passed out at parties, was sexually abused or taken advantage of, came home with huge bruises that I couldn’t remember and even got arrested for DUI on a MOPED!
Now that I’m sober I’m a much more serious person. I have intense drive and continually want to better my environment. I’ve achieved all of the things that a “normal” person achieves (wed, kids, home, good job, savings, etc.) and that is very important to me since I previously thought I’d be dead by 35 and certainly never married w/kids and a fabulous life. My husband says he was a heavy drinker at one point, but in the 13 years we’ve been together I’ve seen him impaired only once. He chooses to live a similar lifestyle but has a beer now and then. However, like I mentioned before, addictions tend to take different forms, I’ve been smoking pot since I was 13, don’t view it as a problem and rationalize it now by thinking that I’m due at least one vice.
I find the fact that family gatherings simply cannot exist without alcohol to be stupefying. I had to INSIST that my BABY SHOWER would not have alcohol served. People were actually waiting for me to leave so they could start drinking. I don’t understand how people that simply MUST have their beer or glass-or-two of wine everyday don’t see that as an issue. When my parents visit they pointedly forgo their daily fix. However, when we visit them or go to dinner, they always indulge.
My being a “recovering alcoholic” is a part of me just like being a heterosexual female with a genetic link to heart disease.
Is it still that much of a temptation after all that time?
Well, not so much a temptation as a curiousity. There are alot of new drinks out now that sound just yummy and yes, I would love to taste one. I just know I can’t because like mentioned above by another poster, one drink would lead to 10 and then my life goes into the shithole. No thanks, not worth it.