I’m engaged in a debate with someone who claims that music… specifically songs… can only be judged subjectively and not by objective criteria.
I disagree and think that music can be judged objectively. That is to say, that it is possible to hear a song and state “that is a terrible song” based upon objective standards. My opponent, of course, thinks that this is impossible–that music is neither “good” nor “bad”–for who is to say what “good” or “bad” is?
The following example was offered in order to push this line of thought to it’s absurd limits:
*a) I set my guitar down on the floor, drop my pants and proceed to defecate upon the guitar which produces sound
b) I take my guitar and proceed to play “Dust In The Wind”
Is each song just as good as the other?*
My opponent still holds that each example is just as good a song as the other.
I hold that somewhere there exists objective standards by which song B can be deemed better than “song” A.
I can see how music can be enjoyed subjectively, but when this view is stretched to the realm of absurdity, it makes me believe that at some point some sort of objective reality comes into play.
Unfortunately I am unable to articulate said objective standards.
I challenge anyone to listen to an album by the band Nitro called OFR and tell me that it’s good. I mean, for god’s sake, the album is so terrible, I HAD TO BUY IT. Whenever I play it for anyone, they laugh out loud.
Seriously, it’s so bad you’ll want to track it down and get yourself a copy.
Colin
p.s. in answer to your question (seriously), I don’t know. I can see both sides of the issue.
dietrologia said:
The following example was offered in order to push this line of thought to it’s absurd limits:
a) I set my guitar down on the floor, drop my pants and proceed to defecate upon the guitar which produces sound
b) I take my guitar and proceed to play “Dust In The Wind”
Is each song just as good as the other?
in that case they are no, but I agree, music can (and should) be judged objectively. it can be judged on technical skill, depth and originality of composition, quality of lyrics, etc. etc.
You cannot compare the lyric quality of Bob Dylan’s “Gates of Eden” with N’sync’s “Baby Bye Bye” and say that it is purely subjective. It is ridiculous to say so. You can’t say that Phish and Matchbox 20 (or insert joe average band here) are on the same level musically. Yes, these are extreme comparisons, but it cements my point I would say.
Some bands are better than others. Plain and simple. But…subjectivity is definitely huge in music as well. I consider myself an elitist, and think that the music I listen to is for the most part “next-level.” But, I also like some music that I know to be simple and average. And there is some music that I know is damn good, but I don’t like for aesthetic reasons.
I guess my point is, it is foolish to say all music is subjective. But it is also foolish to pick music for any other reason than 'I like it. The words speak to me. The music hits me hard in this fashion" etc. etc.
Good music and Bad music exist outside of opinion.
I have not the time to present the gigantic evidence of this that one of my professors presented back in college, but it boils down to this- You don’t have to like every single thing Mozart ever did, just understands why it was good. Conversely, it’s okay to like Britney Spears, just understand that it’s bad.
Well, thank sweet Jesus, someone knows what I’m talking about! I’m not alone as I hurtle through space on this rock knowing that someone else knows the joy of Nitro.
I don’t think that you can have an objective standard that determines whether music is good or bad.
The baseline for good or bad is based on cultural expectations. Compare and contrast classical Chinese music and American Deep South blues. To American listeners, classical Chinese music is atonal and discordant, it hurts to listen to it. The music of Blind Lemon Jefferson would probably not appeal to a Chinese listener.
But that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong. There are some types of music that have cross-cultural appeal (Deep Forest).
But you can judge that music on complexity, which tends to be the way that classical music is judged “good” or “bad.” I agree, it’s very difficult to compare classical Chinese music with Blues. They are two completely different genres, with different standards and raison d’etres. However, you can compare a specific classical Chinese composition with a specific classical Western composition and determine which is the better piece. You look at the form and structure of the music, the use of themes, appropriateness of orchestration or creative use of instrumentation, and you judge it much as other art forms or aesthetic pieces are judged. On symmetry, on how much it challenges the listener, on complexity. And of course, it is always judged on aesthetics, a completely subjective view that determines whether we “like” it or not.
Pop is judged much the same way. As Colinito67 pointed out, it’s fairly easy to see the difference between Dylan and N’Sync. I guess it’s a little more difficult to see the difference between Brittany Spears and Christina Aguilera, but I digress.
I guess it depends on what one expects from music. I personally only expect to be entertained, so I have little qualm listening to Ace of Bass, Dead Kennedys, and some Beethoven all in the same day. Whatever strikes me.
But there are certainly objective standards by which we may judge music, as others have mentioned. How well this objective valuation reflects how much people actually enjoy the music is really an interesting question; I think that they are pretty much independent as a rule, though some may certainly suggest that they only enjoy music that lives up to such objective standards.
I don’t believe there is an easy answer though. Some thoughts come to mind though…
Objectively, there is criteria that one can use to judge the technical merits of music. The level of musicianship, the interation and improvisation, and how well a composition is constructed would be examples. The fact is though that technical music without any artistic merit is boring. And thats where it gets subjective.
I’ve heard two chords songs that moved me to tears and symphonies that did nothing for me. Of course, the opposite is true as well. We all have our favorites and every person is unique.
I don’t enjoy some rap but I appreciate its artistic merit. Many feel the same about Jazz, one of my favorite styles. That intangable that causes us to emotionally connect to certain styles cannot be really judged or compared, other than in a personal sense.
I think that the example of defecating on a guitar could have some sort of artistic merit but I wouldn’t call it good music because I doubt it would move me emotionally (ok, maybe repulsion). Ultimately, I think that is the way we all pretty much judge what we like, by whether or not it moves us.
I’ve really rambled enough. Hopefully something in there makes sense.
Oh! you expect some kind of backup to that statement?
Well, I guess you can judge music objectively. All you do is come up with some standards and compare the music to those standards.
An example of a standard might be: "The music must contain more than 3 chords, contain no tape-loops, and each instrument must be played by a person capable of reading music to a grade 6 level"
Another might be: "The song must achieve the number 5 or better slot in the pop charts of more than 3 countries in the EU and make the top 40 in the United States"
The problem is going to be that no two groups of people will ever be able to agree on exactly what those standards should be. Everyone is going to want the standards written such that the music that they happen to like is ultimately judged as “good”. This is not practical.
What about this: Can art be judged objectively?
Like art, music is one of those things that appeals in different ways to different people. Some of the best music, that I can think of, happens to be played by musicians who aren’t very good in technical terms but the music manages to invoke some emotions in me and that is why I consider it to be good. Some other people probably think it is crap. Some people might not like to listen to sounds that invoke emotion, or maybe it doesn’t affect some people in that way.
The fact that we will probably not be able to come to a consensus as to whether music can be judged objectively is probably a good proof that it can’t be… Go on, follow that one through to it’s logical conclusion
Appreciation of music stems from your past experiences with other music. Depending on what you’ve heard, you may think that Nirvana’s Nevermind is “groundbreaking”, “catchy”, or “a complete glossing over of the band’s sound”. Depending on how much you know about music, you may think that Beethoven is “wonderful” or “long and boring”. There is no “you-can-just-tell” factor.
Your “pooping guitar guy” question is stretched too thin. Is that REALLY how that guy intends to make music? How about just saying “a guy with absolutely no musical talent hitting the strings randomly to produce whatever noise comes out”?
Because that would describe Jad Fair, who some people hail as a musical genius.
Sometimes I hear something that sounds to me like, some guy hitting a piano randomly to produce whatever sounds come out, only to have someone tell me it’s jazz.
Whole genres of music have sprouted by people who wanted to make music that held different things in regard than what they currently were able to find. If you can’t come up with the specific criteria by which to deem some music is bad, and some music is good, perhaps that’s because there is no such criteria. (Or that each person’s reasons for liking music are different.)
While I’m interested in arguments that can bolster my viewpoint, I have no problem with admiting that I may be totally wrong.
How about an argument along these lines:
In the Enlish language there are many different accents and dialects. One can argue that some sound better relative to
others. This is purely subjective. However, what is objective is one’s command of the English language.
“Why come this he did to me?” may convey meaning, but does so very badly in a very objective sense.
no, but I agree, music can (and should) be judged objectively. it can be judged on technical skill, depth and originality of composition, quality of lyrics, etc. etc.
