Can one be a christian if they convert for the wrong reasons?

Great Debates
1

I’m sure I’m not the first one to ever come up with this line of thought, and no doubt it’s been posted on the dope before. I am not a bible scholar, or an expert on religious history, so some of these ideas may be erronous. I was reading an excerpt from Gibbons about Christians destorying pagan temples after Rome outlawed paganism and it started the following train of thought in my mind.

According to christian thought, one can only be a christian and go to heaven if they accept and have faith in Jesus(and if you’re catholic, you have to take communion and confess as well, to my knowledge). But Jesus is the big thing here. God’s love supposed to be a gift, freely given, and the choice upon each person to accept that or not.

Well, a lot of missionaries seem to be a bit more agressive then that. Often they try to guilt or shame one into converting. They beat people over the head with the threat of eternal hellfire. They make non-believers social outcasts.

And in a number of cases, it’s “Convert or we kill you and burn down your house”.

In the US and I suspect Europe as well, Contracts agreed to under duress are not considered valid and binding. You’re not agreeing of your own free will. You’re agreeing because you have no choice(except for the communist choice). At least, contracts aren’t supposed to be valid under said condiitons.

So, if you convert to Christinaity because a gang of heavily armed men came into your town and starting killing, torturing and/or robbing everyone who didn’t convert, isn’t that duress? And should one convert under said conditions, are they really a christain in the eyes of God/Jesus? After all, they probably had no interest in conversion until thier life and family were threatened and did it only because of fear of punishment rather then any feeling for God or Christ.

They may not actually believe at all, but rather, do just enough to make others believe they believe. Go to church, then go home and pray to Odin. Or maybe pray to Odin in church, just in their mind.

Related, and more murky, is agressive missonizing. Say someone converts because of peer pressure or to keep the missionaries from harassing them every time they walk down the street. The same applies. People who convert may not be converting because they see the truth in the message and want what is offered in the religion, but rather, because they just want to be left alone. It seems like it misses the point entirely. Sure, they’re christians in the eyes of the community, but if they don’t really believe, does it matter in the eyes of God?

If childern are raised in church but never know anything else, do they actually have a choice in the matter? Can they really be christians because they never have actually make the choice to believe, but have belief thrust upon them?

So my point is: If you convert for the wrong reasons, are you no better off then if you hadn’t converted at all? If christinaity is supposed to be about choice, then can people who never have the choice actually be christians? If one is never given the proper choice, are they damned?

And does agressive missionizing become counterproductive because people aren’t actually believing and converting in their heart and soul, and because the sellers of christinaity come off looking like supreme jackasses, are likely never to, in essance, being damned because the missionaries made it hard or impossible to ever willingly have the faith?

In converse, if you fail to convert because the missionary you meet is a total dick and you find that is a non sequiter to the “God is love” message, have you been given a choice?

I’m already a weak christian and I’m having a hard time reconciling these questions with what little faith I have left.

2

I am just guessing here but I am thinking from the missionaries point of view if they do not convert you then you are definitely screwed. So a little fear of god, a little arm twisting and getting you to church is fine. Now if you just capitulate to make them stop bugging you then standing in church mouthing prayers you do not mean won’t help you but from the missionaries’ standpoint you are no worse off. They probably figure that hopefully it will all eventually sink in and you will come to Jesus of your own accord and all is good which would never happen if they left you in your heathen/pagan state they found you in.

Missionaries probably do not think they are like this and are doing you a favor. My cynical side says organized religion is just like any power structure humans like to make. From a church perspective more bodies = more money = more votes (to threaten politicians with) = more power.

I like to think God, if God exists, is pretty smart and can see all the fiddly bits that went into your life and not penalize you because some dick trying to sell the faith actually was so awful it ran you off. But then the Bible is explicit (in many places) that the only path to heaven is via Jesus so I guess Jesus freaks would say you are still screwed.

3

OK, there are tons of reasons not to be Christian- there is only one reason to be a Christian- if you are convinced that God exists, that the Bible is a basically reliable record of His dealings with humanity, and that Jesus is His Son & our Lord and Savior.

That said- I agree with Whack-a-Mole when he says this:

Now, I do believe that one’s eternal bliss is only assured by entrusting oneself to God/Jesus. Conversely, I believe that one’s eternal doom is close-to-assured by actively pursuing evil- murder or abuse or the like. Still, people can seem to live very “Christian” lives while professing very non-C’tian beliefs and of course, people can live very “Satanic” lives while professing total devotion to JC. Of those, the former are definitely on safer ground- but without assurance.

Finally- a vaguely similar example from my own experience- I was raised C’tian but became actively so at age 13 upon reading books about The Rapture. I definitely wanted to be caught up to Heaven before God allowed all Hell to break loose on Earth. It was around age 20 that I found The Rapture doctrine to be not terribly solid. By that time, I’d found lots of other reasons to be dedicated to Christ, so it was no big blow to my faith. Still, in a way, I do consider myself someone who chose the right path for a flimsy reason (I won’t say “wrong” because I don’t know that The Rapture doctrine is untrue).

4

Being a Christian is a matter of the spirit and mind. It’s within. I think there are probably some exterior signs, but we aren’t really all that good at judging each other and have been assigned other jobs instead.

I think that too often we try to make God in our own image and we end up with a small God. What if God is all-inclusive, all-perfecting and unlimited by demension and time?

HPL, the Bible isn’t the only source of learning about your spiritual self or even about the role that Christianity plays in your life.

5

I think the problem is that I have a really hard time being a christian anymore is while recently reading the bible it seems to be that Jesus wasn’t trying to start a new religion, he was trying to reform Judasim, but since I don’t believe in Judaism, it bothers me a lot.

And I disagree with the anthromorphic depiction of God as father, which seems wholly inapporpriate for an all powerful being. And the fact that Jesus was sometimes a bit of a jerk, which seems to conflict with the “Jesus is Perfect” that is central to christinaity.(Before going to Jerusalem, he tells his disciples to find a donkey and if anyone complains, say “My Lord needs it”. Dude, where I come from, that’s called STEALING. And then there’s the one with Jesus and the fig tree…).

And the fact that the God seems to change a lot between the old testment and new testament, and I wonder if it’s even the same God.

And the fact the Gospels were written decades after the fact, by people who may not have actually been there, which puts them into question.

And my impression of Paul as a giant dick who never met Jesus and has no special authority to make church law, which bothers me immensly when he laid the foundations for the christian church.

So if you don’t believe in Judaism(which puts much of the old testment into question) and believe much, if not all of the new Testament is suspect, it makes it really, really hard to self identifiy as a christian.

Basically, if I disagree with the bible or don’t find it reliable, it’s hard to see how I can be a christian.

I’m sorry about the rant. This stuff has been bugging me a lot lately. At this point, all I know is that I believe in God, but I can’t define God. And I have no idea what that makes me.

6

Don’t worry about being a Christian or not. Just love. That is the commandment of Christ.

7

This, I think, is the worst of many legacies of the Fundamentalist movement.

Your faith, your knowledge that God loves you and will forgive you, your relationship with Him, should have absolutely nothing at all to do with the Bible, or any other book. But the fundies say that the Bible is all that matters.

  • sighs *

Liberal is right, as usual, on the general question. :slight_smile:

8

What I’ve read is that this is something that Jesus himself arranged beforehand, and the disciples were just completing the transaction. The Bible itself doesn’t really say one way or the other, but I’m inclined to give Jesus & co. the benefit of the doubt, on this and other examples of potential jerkness.

It’s even worse than this. It’s not that the OT presents one complete, consistent, easily graspable picture of God and the NT presents a different, incompatible one; even within testaments, God seems to change a lot, or at least the picture we get of God does. But maybe that says more about the different people trying to write about God than it does about the God they’re writing about; or maybe it’s an inevitable consequence of trying to talk about somebody as big and complex as God.

Paul was something of a dick perhaps—something he himself might admit, adding that it just goes to show that even total dicks can be loved and used by God. He might or might not deny your “never met Jesus” claim, pointing to his Damascus road experience. And I don’t think he thought what he was doing was “making church law” or “laying the foundations for the christian church”—maybe a few local congregations, but the movement as a whole had a lot more people involved than just him; he’s just the one whose writings we have the most of.

I’d say that what it makes you is a lot saner and closer to the truth than the people who think they have God all figured out.

9

I agree here. Paul’s message, IMO, can be summarized as - “We’re free from the old covenant, we don’t have to follow Jewish law any more - but it’s not a licence to behave like Caligula.”

However - because people always want certainties, because they never want to think about what they should do, just be told what they should do - people have lost sight of this…

10

While “Love” and “relationship with God” is certainly superior to a blind adherence to the Bible, there is also a danger from a C’tian POV in tossing aside the Bible to “follow your heart”. Our hearts can justify a whole lot of crap even as the Bible can be used to justify a whole lot of crap- and truthfully, I find it a lot safer to say “When my heart & mind tell me something & the Bible tells me something else, the Bible is right & my heart & mind are wrong.”

I said before that the only reason to be a Christian is if you really trust that God exists, the Bible is His book & Jesus is His Word/Son. Some would just say that “trusting Jesus as God’s Son” is enough, BUT the God whom Jesus called Abba is the Old Testament Yahweh, the Scriptures that Jesus read & revered is the Old Testament, and our only source of any substantial info about Jesus is in the New Testament.

But if you don’t really like Yahweh, distrust the Bible writers & regard JC himself as kinda a jerk- and still want to consider yourself a C’tian, then you’re pretty much SOL. You either need to find something else to call yourself or reconcile yourself to the whole Yahweh-Bible-JC package.

11

Any suggestions? I wholeheartedly, uncompromisingly, and unashamedly reject the Bible as anything other than a book. I put “Paradise Lost” and the Rubaiyat way above it when it comes to spirituality. So, I’m not a Christian. What am I instead?

12

Some of the OP’s questions caused me to leave the Christian faith when I was in my 20’s, and the behavior of nominal “Christians” since then has ensured that I couldn’t go back. I still vividly remember asking, as a child, why “God” would punish someone who had never heard of Him, and not receiving an answer. I still haven’t received a believable answer.

I know some wonderful Christians. I also know some who are lower than pond scum.

I was a seeker for many, many years before I found a spiritual home.

13

You’ll note that another qualifier mentioned was regarding JC as some kind of jerk. If you revere and worship Jesus you are free to call yourself a Christian if you like, although others who consider themselves Christians may not agree. I revere and worship Jesus but I have so many objections and disagreements with standard Christian doctrine that I no longer call myself a CHristian. Ultimatly it doesn’t matter at all…and I mean at all…what you call yourself. God sees the true intent of our spirit.

Regarding the OP.

Of course people can be “converted” for the wrong reasons. Benjamin Franklin probably joined his chrurch for social and economic advancement. IMO someone converting just to please another person, spouse or parents, isn’t a great reason. Do it because it seems right for you and your personal spiritual journey. Also be ready to unconvert when the time seems right. I joined a church years ago and I was totally sincere and it was the right thing at that time. Now my beliefs have changed and I couldn’t be a member as I was before.

14

Well, I don’t know - whose side are you on in PARADISE LOST? G

15

I can’t say follow your heart is such a bad thing. Life has potential to lead to a lot of crap with or without the Bible. If you make a personal commitment to seek God, love and truth and ,mean it, then you may get sidetracked occasionally but you can’t go to wrong. I would recommend studying the teachings of Jesus and decide for yourself what it means. I’d even recommend seeking the Holy Spirit and trying to have faith that God will lead you in the right direction if you only ask and mean it. Have the courage to choose for yourself what is meaningful to you. You’ll have no trouble finding plenty of folks that will tell you what to believe. Listen, consider, and then choose for yourself.

There are other great books and spiritual concepts that are just as meaningful, just as inspiriing, as the Bible. I treasure the Bible but I think we really shortchange our spiritual knowledge and experience if we put it on a pedistal above other books.

16

Getting fooled into believing actually works. Pretending you believe doesn’t. The only one who needs to believe that you are a Christian is Christ. He doesn’t need reports from missionaries, priests, elders, or anyone, except you. Let Him know.

Tris

“Swat my hind with a melon rind, That’s my penguin state of mind.” ~ Opus ~

17

Beautifully said.