Do Christians Continue to Be Sinners After Conversion?

Great Debates
1

This question was prompted by something shoe1234 wrote in his or her very first post (and people say we’re not getting good quality newbies these days!). Anyway, shoe1234 wrote:

Here’s a
lnk to the entire post.

Shoe1234 isn’t the first person I’ve heard mention this idea. Me, I find it vaguely troubling, in part because I’ve known some rather nasty Christians and because I know full well I’ve continued to sin. There was one time when I deliberately, knowingly, and very willfully broke a very serious vow I’d sworn before God. My anger and outrage mattered more than what I knew was right. I’ll also be doing some shopping today, and knowing what I do of the town I’ll be shopping in, I probably won’t be loving my neighbor as myself.

I also think the idea that we are made perfect after becoming Christians is one which can lead to arrogance and sin. If we are made perfect and free of sin, what incentive do we have to obey God’s law. If God forgives us, why does what we do to our fellow man matter? Back in the late 1980’s, there were several scandals involving prominent Christians such as Jerry Falwell who were caught commiting adultery. Closer to home, I give you Richard Rossi who claims to be a good, devout Christian who ran a Charismatic congregation even after beating his wife nearly to death. Finally, at my old church, the minister we had when I returned home left the church and stopped being an active Episcopal minister after a life crisis which involved accusations of adultery; our last minister was asked to leave after problems arose between him and the congregation. One of the final straws, I’m told, came when he refused to apologize for the mistakes he’d made, and he did make them, because he thought it would be a sign of weakness. I knew and liked these last two men, and I considered them good friends. There is no doubt in my mind or my heart that they were Christians. I have some doubt about the truth of the accusation of adultery, but that may well be wishful thinking. I have little doubt about the refusal to apologize. In their cases, too, I’m pretty sure they believed that being Christians doesn’t mean we do not sin, but rather that our sins are forgiven.

As I’ve said earlier, I never had a Road-to-Damascus type conversion experience, just a faith which grows deeper and surer with each passing year. There isn’t a turning point in my life when I can say “I was a sinner then, but now I’m not.” I’d like to discuss the idea that, after a person commits herself to Christ, she no longer commits sins. Shoe1234, I’d particularly like to hear your thoughts on this, along with His4Ever and others.

Sorry about the length of the OP – I’ve been accused of singling out nationally known Christians, so I wanted to add some which I do have personal experience of, although I thank God that I never met Mr. Rossi.

CJ

2

Claims have nothing to do with it.

Jesus taught:

I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34)

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. (John 13:34-35)

If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. (John 8:31)

Premises

  1. If you sin, then you are a slave.
  2. If you love, then you are His disciple.
  3. If you are His disciple, then you are not a slave.

Inferences

  1. If you love, then you are not a slave. (Premises 2, 3 — Modus Ponens)

  2. If you are not a slave, you do not sin. (Premise 1 — Modus Tolens)

Conclusion

If you love, you do not sin. (Inferences 2, 3 — Modus Ponens)

Exercise

Two men stand side by side, each carrying a sign that makes a claim. The first man’s sign says “Atheist”. The second man’s sign says “Christian”. The man who claims to be an Atheist loves the man who claims to be a Christian. But the man who claims to be a Christian does not love the man who claims to be an Atheist.

Which man is free from sin, the Atheist or the Christian?

3

Not trying to trivialise, but it sounds like:

“Hey, I’ve just been baptised. Now I’m infallible.”

I can see why that argument would be attractive to a lot of people. In other words:

“I’m a card carrying <insert name here>. Everything I do or say is right by definition.”

It’s a scary concept, but it seems to explain how a lot of people think.

4

Desmostylus, that’s the exact impression I get from statements like the one Shoe1234 posted. Maybe it’s a sign that I still have self esteem issues if not subscriptions, but I cannot wrap my mind around the idea that I’m free from sin. Free from the long term consequences, i.e. eternal damnation, etc., yes, but not free from sinful acts themselves.

CJ

5

Actually, cjhoworth, after re-reading Shoe1234’s post more carefully, I think that we may all be arguing the same case.

Anyway, you sin, you repent in some fashion (through an adult baptism, a confession, a private conversation with Him, a private conversation with yourself, a group confession ala AA, etc.). You acknowledge past sin, and resolve to try harder.

IMHO, it isn’t the acknowledgment that does the trick, it’s the reformation that counts.

6

Don’t mind me. I’ll just sit over here in the corner. :smiley:

7

I could have said that a lot better and in fewer words:

IMHO, it isn’t enough just to say that you’re sorry. You have to prove it through future actions.

8

Well, here are my thoughts on the subject, though don’t know if I’ll explain it well. I don’t think a person becomes totally sinless in practice after accepting Jesus as Savior. (I can attest to this from personal experience) It’s a fact that this is what we strive for because we want to please Him, though. I believe when He looks at those who have accepted Christ, that He sees the righteousness of Christ credited to those who’ve been born again and not their sins. However, I’m not saying this is an excuse to say to yourself, “oh boy, I’m saved now I can go and do whatever I want.”

The Christian life is a struggle sometimes and hopefully we grow to be more like Christ as time goes on. We won’t ever be perfect here on earth, I don’t think. The apostle Paul had the same struggles. Romans 7:15-24, helpful to read the whole chapter. If we could be perfect, we wouldn’t have needed a Savior, would we?

So in answer to the question, I don’t think we can ever say we’re not sinners though it’s something we strive for to please the Lord, but those who’ve accepted God’s provision are sinners saved by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is very different from sinners who refuse to accept His provision. If they reject Christ, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin. Hebrews 10:26

NOTE: I also think, imho, that a lot of times there’s a bit of confusion as to what it actually means to be born again, or accept Jesus as Savior. It’s not just a mental excercise.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

9

Couldn’t have said it better, myself.

Then again, perhaps that’s why I’m not a writer. :wink:

10

A personal story that may or may not be on point:

I became involved in a Christian group my freshman year of college, particularly through the efforts of a very nice “born again” girl who helped me through a rough period. At the time, I saw her as an exemplar of the Christian model, and for awhile, I took the “born again” philosophy quite seriously. (I rediscovered my Catholic roots shortly thereafter, so my current perspective is that if you screw up, go to confession and don’t do it again.)

Said girl and I ended up on the same trip to Ireland before our senior year of college. While we were out at a bar one night, she stole one of the glasses from that bar as a souvenier. I was appalled, and told her so. She was quick to reply that 1) this wasn’t stealing, because everybody does this sort of thing; 2) it’s not that big of a deal, because the glass probably had a minimal cost to the owner, and 3) she’s dead to sin anyway, so it’s not like she could get in trouble with God for doing it.

Assuming she really was “born again” for fundamentalist purposes, her action and her justification were VERY interesting.

11

Hmmm, that does sound rather strange to me. That’s not the attitude that a true Christian should have, in my view. And yes, I think she can get in trouble with God. If she’s really His and is deliberately sinning, as in stealing, then He will deal with her with some type of discipline probably.

From what little information you’ve given here, I can only guess as to whether this girl was truly born again.

12

His4ever, I assume that when you say “That’s not the attitude a true Christian should have” you actually mean “That’s not the attitude a Christian of my particular sect should have”, right?

13

I don’t consider myself to be a sect, just a plain ordinary Christian. A Chrisitan is a Christian and I don’t know of any who think it’s okay to steal. It appears to me that your comments about “my particular sect” is just word games.

14

I’m sorry to say that this is precisely the reasoning I have a problem with. How can a Christian judge oneself to be “saved”? Worse yet, how can a Christian peer into someone else’s heart and make a judgment call on the state of that person’s soul? Perhaps your comment was intended to be speculative, but it’s still indicative of a mainstream protestant mentality I’ve seen of making determinations about the state of souls.

This is not to excuse the poor girl’s actions, but spiritually, I don’t know where she’s at. My understanding is that the sheep/goat determination is to be made by Christ and nobody else. I wouldn’t dare place myself in the “saved” camp purely out of fear that I’d become complacent in my love for God and neighbor.

15

The question is, what is sin? Lets first forget about “original sin,” because all theologicians reject this silly notion.

Now, as a first approximation, lets say sinning is breaking God’s laws. What is God’s laws? There used to be the Ten Commandments, but a whole bunch of Protestants insist that they don’t exist anymore, even though the bible does not say this. So, if they are correct, you don’t have to follow the Ten Commandments.

So you are free to steal and do other kinds of nasty things as long as you Love. Something like that.

16

the very fact that christianity can possibly be interpreted as meaning “once you convert you can’t sin/are infallible” scares the crap out of me. Just for this reason alone - that the bible isn’t clear on this subject - is reason enough for getting rid of christianity. We simply can’t allow a religion to exist that convinces its members that as long as they’re members they can do no wrong. Simply against public policy.

17

Might there be a difference between being “freed from sin” and “free of sin”?

A spiritual difference, that is.

I sin. Some consider that I am a Christian. I happen to think there is only one opinion on that subject that is authoritative, and it isn’t mine.

Tris

18

No, but it is something that is met with great struggle and difficulty for many, and there are many, perhaps including many great Christians, who will not experience the transforming experiences in Jesus Christ. (This comment applies whether the experience in Jesus is gradual and unmarked by a conversion experience or sudden and marked by a conversion experience.)

Even though it may not necessarily be a separate group that has broken away from a larger group (and I’m not really very familiar with your denomination, His4ever), it could be called a sect in that members of your denomination are united by certain common beliefs. I am not trying to judge individual souls, but I do agree that it would be a perversion of the spirit of Christianity to say that it is okay to steal, absent extraordinary circumstances.

19

For a wonder, I find nothing to disagree with in His4Ever’s thoughtful post. (Brief comment, czarcasm: the sentence of hers that you quoted was missing one important element: “In my view.” Though I’d never give His4Ever authority to speak in behalf of my views as a Christian – we differ on too many “details” that are important in shaping how we differently try to live out the life God calls us each to – I’d have to say that I would strongly affirm that she is the world’s foremost expert on her own views. :slight_smile:

The “holiness” sects that broke off from American Wesleyan Methodism (which differs strongly from British Wesleyan Methodism, BTW) suggest that the Christian duty is to strive towards perfection, not as an unattainable goal, a “limit” in the mathematical sense, but as something that we are commanded to achieve: “Be ye perfect, as my Father in Heaven is perfect.”

That to the side, in essence, what His was reporting was that Christians strive to do God’s will in all that they do – a perspective that differs in obvious ways from the admittedly morally influenced actions of a moral atheist. Nonetheless, each of us falls short of the ideals to which we aspire – and in Christian terms, that falling short is “sin” (singular, and denoting a state), with the particular acts or omissions by which we fall short being “sins” (plural, and denoting actions). And we are called on to repent and turn to Him. (I’d rather not get into a detailed discussion of repentance here, but the gist of it is not a New Year’s Resolution of sorts to refrain from that particular sin, but a general attitude of turning to God, who presumably knows one’s intent and limitations, because His Love is more important to you than whatever you might have gotten out of that particular sin.

Nonetheless, writers from the New Testament on have contrasted the life of the unrepentant “sinner” (who may do good on a regular basis but is not motivated by love of God) with that of the sincere Christian (who may very well sin, and perhaps even more than the “sinner” – knowing that Joe full well admits his fault and is working on emending it, I can use as an example Joe Cool’s regular losing of his temper vis-à-vis Spiritus Mundi’s generally placid online demeanor – but who is motivated by a sincere desire to do God’s will and only His will). And in this context, my namesake, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, said in his letter to the Philippians:

(The bolded portion is my sig line over on the Pizza Parlor.)

20

Bumper sticker that used to be popular around here:

Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven.

:slight_smile: