Can patriotism be logically justified?

Great Debates
1

This business with Scotland has got me to thinking…

My default position for many years has been that patriotism*, at least as I understand the meaning of the word, is essentially a flawed way of thinking.

(*okay, let’s do this properly: the feeling of loving your country more than any others and being proud of it)

Proud of one’s country? Perhaps like being proud when your country wins a sporting event, or proud of your country’s rich history/pretty beaches/whatever? No-one can or should be *proud *(or ashamed) of the country they were born in, as ‘nationality’ does not represent any achievement or result of agency on behalf of the individual. Whatever my nationality, I cannot (and must not) take any personal credit or share any pride in any good works done by my fellow compatriots. You can be proud of yourself, and perhaps proud of close intimates, but not an entire nation state.

Loving your country more than any other? People can be fond (or not) of the countries they live in, believing rightly or wrongly that their particular domicile has things going for it that places elsewhere don’t have. But that’s not the same as loving. Can one really *love *a geopolitical entity?

I could go on but you get the idea - the notion of patriotism has always seemed somewhat repulsive to me. Like religion, it has come across as a kind of disease of the mind; a lie spread by the ruling classes to manipulate the masses…

I recently got to thinking, though, about how nationality and personal identity fit together - and have realised there might be a bit more too it than that. I am British, which - as per the above, at least - would technically mean nothing more than I was born within the geographic boundaries of the nation-state recognised as the United Kingdom. But, hang on… I grew up in the UK; I have a British ‘cultural lens’ through which I see the world - I probably owe more of what I can loosely term my ‘personality’ and ‘character’ to British society than I care to realise. The UK is a lot more than an arbitrary political entity that I exist within - it created me - if I had been born in the US, Somalia, or East Timor, even if I were genetically identical, I would have grown up to be a very different person. So, in a way, I am the UK - we are all, in part, the country/ies that we grew up in.

Okay, this on its own is not enough to legitimately start chanting ‘Ing-ger-LEHND!’ and thumping foreigners, but it perhaps is enough to justify acknowledging that my relationship with the United Kingdom is more of a personal one than previously realised. Perhaps not of the crass, jingoistic flag-waving sort; but is some kind of patriotism ‘okay’? Can it be justified, as a kind of affection towards the society which helped to form you?

I’m rambling so I’ll stop. Any thoughts?

2

It’s an emotion. Emotions don’t have to be logical. That said there are positive and negative sides to patriotism.

Your feeling of repulsion against patriotism is an emotion as well. There’s no logical justification for it. Logically dismissing the bad parts would be the way to go, but being a human you’ve expanded that to a feeling of repulsion towards the whole concept.

3

My wife and I were just discussing this last night.

Here’s how I feel about the United States: I’m glad I live here, glad I was born here, but I’m not proud to be an American. I care about the direction the country takes, and am fascinated by and often inspired by our history and national landmarks, but again, not specifically proud of anything.

I’m very proud of my dad and grandpa and grandma for their service to this country in the army, and nephew for his current service in the navy. But not blindly proud of soldiers or sailors or the flag or any other institutions of this country.

I care more about the well-being of people than a country. I don’t care about where someone was born.

I guess I just wasn’t born with a patriotism gene.

4

Patriotism is pretty bad, and I generally endorse Dr. Johnson when I view Nationalists or ‘Patriot Parties’ of the past.

Anyone who defines ‘The People’, defines The People as Himself.

Tribal Identity is vital, and one can be born or adopted freely into a tribe, and following the chief of a tribe is necessary: confusing the Tribe with it’s geographical expression or supposing the Tribe itself has a political function or a unique destiny is merely vulgar.

5

I’ll say without rancor that the preceding posters, and the OP, strike me as being cold, narcissistic, and likely unworthy of public office. It’s a very silly human being who pretends that he’s “above” such things as patriotism, nor is it remotely irrational to be attached to one’s country. I’ll even go so far as to say that nothing evil has ever come of loving one’s country, though much evil has come from hating it. The only difficulty is in those who pretend to love it while in fact hating it. They can do a great deal of damage.

Aside from the OP’s point - we are are intimately attached to our culture and society in ways difficult to define, let alone catalogue - even the very land under our feet has its own characteristics that create a great deal of our history. It wasn’t mere accident that the Italians are the Italians, or the English are the English, or the Irish, Chinese, Germans and so on. Humans have always had a connection to their land and have been shaped by it. I can understand why a New Yorker loves his island precisely because I love the rolling banks of the Ohio. I know why the Arizonan loves his desert because I love the hills of home. This love does not diminish us or blind us. If anything, it opens our eyes to the beauty of something so simple as home.

Further, the emotion of pride is often misunderstood by those below it; it is never misunderstood by those beyond it. I have never met anyone who was personally proud of being American. (The stuck-up will find some way to be stuck up on any difference, and will create a difference if they can’t. Country is just one excuse among many.) What I have found are many people with a deep and abiding love for their land and people, who do not easily forget their traditions and identity. And I have a found a great many people who cannot conceive of anything beyond money, fads, and the latest youtube video.

The man who tries to pretend he is being rational in dismissing his country is a pretty low creature indeed. I can imagine man who gives himself over to the love of humanity, and might venture away from his nation to bring the word of God, or build schools, or feed the hungry. He is above the concept, but he can readily understand it; it is only because he understands the love of country that he can also love humanity, but would never pretend the differences are not deep and do not exist. I can understand easily the man who disagrees with the direction his country has been heading, precisely because it is his. If he didn’t care about it, he wouldn’t be improved. Rather, he would be lessened by the lack of something positive and great.

Patriotism often receives a bad rap because it’s been an easy excuse for bad men, but bad men never want for excuses. Do you really think the Nazis loved Germany? They went well out of their way to destroy it long before they invaded other lands. For lovers of Germany, they wiped out as much of its history as they could, and repurposed (read: lied about) the rest to support themselves. And it worked briefly, but if they hadn’t been destroyed it would all have collapsed, because they didn’t care about making Germany great.

I am also reminded of Chesterton, who pointed out people didn’t love a country or neighborhood because it was great - they made it great because they loved it. Love must be unconditional if it is worth anything. Love which is otherwise is ultimately a cheap and worthless thing. If it can be bought, it’s just not love. But what makes a country worth fighting and dying for the love that comes first; the nation exists because of that love and attachment.

And if you want to argue it’s irrational, then so what? It is based in biology, geography, and sociology, and those are real, but never mind that. Let’s say that it’s the most irrationally irrational thing ever. So what? My love of stupidly hard video games is ten times as irrational. My forbearance towards other people’s bratty children is at least five times as irrational. My care for doing a good job is pretty far up there. But I love stupidly hard video games, forbear the nuisances of small children, and work on the little details anyway, because these things are worth my time. And my nation, my country, my people more so.

6

So you can love the particular actions of your country but not the country itself?

Isn’t that like saying you can only love the “I Have a Dream Speech” but not MLK himself?

7

“My country, right or wrong,” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother, drunk or sober.”

  • G. K. Chesterton
8

Well, if you come under attack by the patriots of another country, patriotism is sometimes the only thing that can keep you alive. United we stand, divided we fall and all that.

9

I think my own view of patriotism changed considerably when I spent considerable time abroad. After that, my experience of being comfortable in, and supportive of, the US acquired a new depth. Now, this isn’t the kind of patriotism that makes me wear Stars and Stripes do-rags or put “screw France” bumper stickers on my car: that’s clearly juvenile forms of patriotism. I’m talking about the type of patriotism that is more like feeling a part of, and concern for, your family: yes, you didn’t choose them, but there is an important bond there. Doesn’t mean you can’t think that your dad hasn’t made mistakes, but it is a significant and important relationship and feeling.

Yep, I have no problem feeling pride in my country, and I think my relationship to it is perfectly rational.

10

I think of patriotism as most typically a sentiment promoted by patriots, especially in governments, to recruit others to their way of thinking; a sentiment which aligns with some instinctive sense of belonging to our own tribe. I think it makes a certain kind of logical sense because it supports the survival of groups despite outside attacks. On the downside, it is also a way of getting various nasty things to happen and defending various nasty practices. I guess the upside has outweighed the downside for most of human history, but don’t know if it does in the modern world.

But, in terms of us all striving to be the people we want to be, and truth and beauty and goodness, I think it’s probably a rotten idea (we have never really tested its absence though).

Like millions, we started hanging an American flag in front of the house soon after the September 11 attacks. Then when it seemed to us that the Republican party co-opted the flag and patriotism as their own, we backed off. Realizing that our collective emotions are being toyed with doesn’t quite disengage them.

11

This is a horrible definition if for no other reason than that it can be interpreted in two very different ways (which confused me when I first read it): does the “it” in “being proud of it” refer to the feeling or to the country?

I looked around for some other dictionary definitions, and none of the others I came across used the word pride/proud.

I think Ravenman is correct in likening healthy patriotism to one’s feeling for one’s family.

12

A certain minimum level of patriotism is very useful for keeping a nation from falling into repeated civil wars, and makes it possible to keep together and functional without a dictator. As demonstrated by all those dysfunctional Third World nations that were created without the input of the locals by colonialists drawing arbitrary lines on a map. Worshiping it is bad, yes; but unless its populace is willing to put its collective interests at least a little above their own or those of their company or tribe that society will be prone to falling apart into internal conflict and war, and to oppressive governments*.

Enlightened self interest seems a pretty “logical” reason to me.

*Both because it takes a fairly heavy handed government to keep such a nation from collapse, and because in such a nation there’s few if any people available to run the government that actually care about the nation in question as a whole. Just look at all the dictators who run their nation to benefit themselves, their family or their tribe; that’s exactly what can be expected from a ruler with no patriotism.

13

One can be proud out of a sense of pride–the positive emotion resulting from accomplishment. Whether yours or that someone who is closely attached to you.

I am proud of my sister for being an accomplished epidemiologist, for instance.

But “pride” is also used to describe the emotion you feel when you’re glad to be who you are, despite the mainstream’s collective opinion. As in, “I’m black and I’m proud”. Or “Gay Pride.”

If the US government were to do something radical and amazing, like completely eradicate poverty, I would certainly be proud that I contributed to the effort with my tax dollars, and I would feel happy enough to wave a flag. Is that irrational? Well, no. It’s a feeling, neither rational or irrational. But I’d hope it would be an understandable emotion even for a Vulcan mind.

But just being the most powerful nation isn’t that impressive to me, so personally I can’t take pride in that. However, I might feel something akin to “not ashamed to be me” pride if Americans were hated worldwide. Since the global “mainstream” is very much influenced by the US, we aren’t at the point right now. But maybe one day we will be. Until then, I won’t be waving flags anytime soon.

14

I used to work with a German carpenter–old enough to have been in the German Army in World War II–who often ran down everything American, to my annoyance. I may not fit the strict definition of “patriot,” but I felt compelled to defend my country against this immigrant. As headstrong as he was, I was more so.

15

You CAN love your country while simultaneously acknowledging its flaws. The idea that you can’t seems to be a provence of the (U.S.) political Right. It also seems that low levels seem to go along with atheism.

16

I think we can define patriotism in too many ways to determine if it’s logically justified or not. If we just say it’s the drive to do what’s best for the country and the people in it, that seems pretty darned justifiable. If it’s “America, Fuck Yeah!” then it’s jingoistic idiocy, encouraged by jingoistic idiots.

17

Let me take this idea for a walk…

Patriotism implies you have a country in the first place on which to bestow your affection. That ain’t necessarily so:

Some people live nations that have ill defined borders, that are subject to change. They may live in an area that is subject to claims by rival states. Travel through Europe and you will find many places that have changed hands several times in living memory. Sometimes states are unstable and people within them feel a sense of nationhood that belongs in a separate state. There are places in Europe, where national and local identities confound attempts mark clear political boundaries within which to establish viable states. Eg. Bosnia and Herzegovina. People also emigrate. Some people have more than one passport and more than one nationality.

If a nation cannot be logically justified, where does that leave the patriot?

So, assuming you live in a well established country like the US, which has a stable constitution and is sufficiently far away from other nations for it not to have contended borders and is powerful enough to defend itself from threats to its sovereignty from other states…then can you feel that patriotism is justified?

Well, why bother if it all hangs together nicely? What is the point of an emotional sentiment that obtains satisfaction from…not having much to worry about? No problem to solve because of a happy accident of geography? Patriotism in that context does not make a lot of sense. How can anyone feel proud of receiving a gift for something that did not involve any great struggle against adversity? Do people feel proud if they suddenly win a lottery? They did not have to do much. They were just lucky.

It only become relevant if the state is threatened either from within or from outside and patriotism will bind people together in state of national unity to confront that threat.

I was always rather bemused on visits to the US by the tendency towards patriotic gestures and sentiment that verges on the mawkish. This really does not exist so much in the UK, where all those displays would be regarded as a bit ‘over the top’. People who embrace the flag like that in the UK give the impression that they are either silly or making a very extreme political point.

But looking at the history of the US, it still bears the scars of Civil War and there is a delicate dynamic between the States and their relationship with the Federal government. I often wondered how the Hell such a varied set of people could hold together in such a huge country. The fact is the political culture fosters a personal political identity that associates itself with the United States as a whole in preference to any individual US state. The symbols of federal United States are given great prominence in its institutions, even schools. I guess, if that is what it takes to keep the country together…Existential threats also pay their part in reinforcing this. Pearl Harbour and 9/11 were events that drew people to unite around the flag in order to defend themselves.

Looking at it from a different angle, if patriotism is the love of country. That is a personal emotional sentiment. Identification with what ‘country’ represents. What about other things that contribute towards identity? There are lots to chose from. Your state, city neighbourhood. Social position, Family, Work…lots of things to help you form an image of yourself and place it in a context and a place in the world.

How does patriotism compare with these things? If you love your country above all, does it not transcend all of them and where ever there is a conflict, duty to the state wins above all?

What if some lunatic gets into power and becomes Head of State. Do you suspend your judgement and slavishly follow their lead? Well, we all know where that has led people in the past: huge loss of life as some great dictator drives the country over a cliff. The love of country manipulated to the extent that it becomes destroyed in conflict. It happened to Germany, Japan, China, Russia…

Samuel Johnson wrote that ‘patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrel’. History is full of rascals who drape themselves in the flag in order to disguise their own failures and shortcomings and take advantage of a country faced with threats.

Patriots are at best one trick ponies. Often they are blind to the weaknesses of their country and its leadership and they may suspend their moral virtue in its interests. This is quite easy to do if they don’t have any in the first place.

In peace time and in a country at ease with itself, there should be little need for patriotism. It is crying ‘Wolf’ for no reason. When facing down a threat, a patriotic response may involve a dangerous suspension of critical faculties and your identity is subsumed into one political instance.

Pride in national achievement, nor feelings of shame for national failures, need not have anything to do with patriotism because these apply to very specific situations. A game of football does not threaten the a nations existence.

Identity is also a rather more complicated matter than patriotism. Nationality might be just one element in a chain of loyalties that describe a political identity, which is only one aspect of personal identity.

Patriotism is a defensive reaction to a threat to a state. Ideally it should only appear in times of dire emergency.

18

The true lover of country would resist anything that threatened the country, including the “great dictator driving the country over the cliff.” The problem isn’t love of country. It might be leaders who manipulate people by appealing to their love of country. But even then, I don’t think Hitler, for example, led people astray by appealing to their love so much as by appealing to their hate and resentment.

At best patriots are aware of the weaknesses of their country and its leadership, and they work to make them better precisely because of their patriotism (= love and devotion for their country).

19

This is another case of ‘pride’ that I have had difficulty understanding (although perhaps as an English-speaking hetereosexual white male, I should check my privilege - I’m on thin ice here…). Just like being British, American or Cambodian by birth is not the result of conscious action (and so cannot be considered as eligible for pride or shame), surely the same goes for race and sexual orientation. How can anyone be *proud *of being gay? Surely not ashamed is what we should *all *be going for?

I hadn’t heard or thought of your definition before, but it goes some way to explaining the usage of the term.

20

If we say this, then I feel patriotic about a great many countries, not just my own.