Pros and cons of patriotism

Great Debates
1

I was contemplating posting about patriotism in the Nava pit thread, but decided against it, since… well, I didn’t think it would result in much of a debate.

I don’t *get * patriotism. Taking pride in the random fact of where you were born seems so arbitray. I honestly don’t undrstand the feeling behind being a patriot.

I’m Swedish. If there are some physical traits to me, well, then yes, people would always peg me as from northern European stock: 6’4", blond (increasingly grey) and with blue eyes. If I met some random guy in the U.S. that person would never jump to the conclusion that I’m Greek.
My language is also small. We’re about nine million and with our cousin langugaes in Scandinavia, the language group is close to 20 million. So we have to learn other languages, primarily English, if we want to do business, travel, study. Without boasting, I’d say that most, if not all of us Scandinavian, are fairly good at English, something we share with another small population group and language, the Dutch.

I like living in Sweden. It has it’s flaws, but so do most other places. I’m not proud of being Swedish, nor ashamed. It’s just something I am. I don’t feel a very strong bond with people 1500 miles away in the far north of the country, it’s easier to relate to Danes in Copenhagen, only 15 minutes away, or northern Germany.

The province where I live was Danish for a much longer time than it has been Swedish. That ended in 1656 with one of those random mini-wars Europe was so rife with, until Germany took it to an industrial level. Borders in Europe and many other places in the world are more or less arbitrary.

I guess I can see that patriotism has been good for some countries. A inified and styrong population can work together for a common goal. England built an Empire on that, the U.S. has made a very big country, with a very large and diverse population, into the only super power in the world.
On the other hand, look at the mess that is former Yugoslavia.

I guess what I’m tryin to understand is why the birthplace of a person is important, to the point where that person actually think of him/herself as a patriot.

2

I’ve been to Sweden, Denmark and Norway and liked them very much. I spent several weeks in Denmark with a family and saw a lot of pride in the Danish way of doing things – Danish customs, sports, government, work ethic, beer, food, the cleanliness, the Danish Resistance, the seafaring history, the Viking image, the hearty partying, the new (at that time) Queen, socialized medicine, the long holidays in the summer months, the pride in the high standard of living…

The Danes were proud of their heritage and proud of their country. That is a healthy patriotism.

I have seen patriotism take on an implication in the last 25 to 35 years in America that it didn’t have when I was growing up. It used to mean that we were proud of our cultural heritage and loved our country just as most people love “home.” In recent years it seems to have come to mean "I love my country to the exclusion of all others and will be on constant guard against anyone who seeks to intrude upon our position as the world’s only super-power. Get out of our way. If you are from the Left, you can’t be patriotic. You are against freedom so I’m going to hit you with my flagpole, you traitor!

I can understand your non-acceptance of the second kind of “patriot.” But that is not what most Americans think of when they use the word. They are thinking more like the Danes that I described and they have a just pride in the freedoms and rights guaranteed in our Constitution – which really is an incredible document.

I’ve quit saying the Pledge of Allegiance – at least for a while. Our government needs to get its priorities straight. I don’t promise allegiance to a flag anyway. The government has become too secretive and intrusive – the reverse of how it should be. Some of the worst of Americans are in government.

3

Seems to me you’re misunderstanding patriotism. Patriotism is different things to different people.

For me, patriotism is not taking pride in where you were born but taking pride in what your country has done and is doing. Beyond that, your country is your extended family. They’ve got your back and you’ve got theirs.

For example, just to get the obligatory Iraq reference out of the way, I’m proud that my country helped oust Saddam; I’m not proud that my country has stayed in Iraq. Equally, the son of my parents’ neighbour is a Royal Marine: I’m proud of what he has achieved for himself, and for what he’s done for the country; I’m not so proud of the politicians who’ve put him in harm’s way. But if ever I needed a man of action at my back, he’d be the first I’d call.

4

The pro is that it motivates a person to resist radical change in one’s social system.

The con is that it motivates a person to resist radical change in one’s social system.

5

I like patriotism; I just don’t get how it has to be about your own country. I mean, I’m American, but if I were going to be patriotic, I would be patriotic about the Netherlands, or something. Now *that’s * a country to be proud of! Takes care of its poor, very progressive social attitudes, etc.

6

I’m English and damn proud of it.

As far as I’m concerned my country is the finest on Gods earth. Sure we have our flaws but despite all that and no matter what, England is my country.

Patriotic? you bet I am

7

Agreed. I like it when England does well at sports and that we have a democracy and that we gave up our Empire well enough that other countries still like us.

Yes, but surely you have to watch out for patriotism = ‘support our troops’.

The US installed Saddam in power, sold him weapons of mass destruction that led to around a million deaths in the Iraq-Iran war and 50,000 civilian deaths in Iraq.
The stated reason for the UK to follow the US into Iraq was WMDs, not regime change.
Burma is run by a military dictatorship, which has imprisoned the democratically elected Government (whose leader has won the Nobel Peace Prize). The US shows no interest at all in restoring democracy in that country.
I think that your patriotism may have blinded you to the true situation. If Iraq didn’t have oil and didn’t invade oil-producing countries, no US troops would ever set foot there.

8

I’m an American, and I am not proud of it sometimes, but I can’t deny my Americanness. I am appalled at how my countries’ leaders behave on the world stage, and I am disgusted with the flag-waving stupidity that permeates our society. I wish we could be the guys in the white hats, but we aren’t, and we never will be. Nearly all the prosperity we enjoy has come off the backs of the poor and/or our lording our military and economic power over others. We’re fat, dumb, and happy and we shouldn’t be.

I can imagine some folks thinking “If you don’t like it, why don’t you leave?”, but all I can say to that is why don’t you leave, you fucking ignorant bellicose fuckwit? You’re the ones who are personifying the Ugly American. Besides, my family came over here long before it was a country, and I won’t have some half-wit dickheads trying to foist their crypto-Nazi bullshit on me. No thanks; I’ll stay and fight.

In the words of an English band (New Model Army), ironically:

*Tell all the people who believe what they read in the press
Tell all the folk who stare from behind suburban walls
The enemy is not some nation far across the sea
The enemy is with us every single breathing day

So yes, I will fight for my country
The land that I love so well
Yes - for justice, a land fit for all our futures
Yes, I will fight for my country
The land that I love so well
Hear the voices of our history echo all around

Fight all the ones who divide us rich against poor
Fight all the ones who divide us white against black
Fight all the ones who want their missiles in our earth
Fight all the powers who would lead us into war
*

9

The heck we did. Saddam took power from within, and nothing the United States did or didn’t do particularly helped him there. At the time, Iraq wasn’t a line in the cold war, which as of yet hadn’t reached out towards the Middle East.

Secondly, from Wikipedia

In retrospect, it was probably foolish, but understandable. At the time, no one thought he was going to run amok; in any case, it wasn’t a government agency which sent him any dangerous items, unless you count computer sales. France, Russia, and Germany have had a much tighter relationship that way.

It is true that the US sold him some arms, but these were massively outsized by Russian contributions.

10

my bolding

http://www.bartleby.com/73/1641.html

A wise man and a indication that this shit aint new.

11

It isn’t necessarily a rational thing. A culture that instills a strong sense of loyalty in its members and can induce them to make great sacrifices for its sake greatly enhances its chances for survival, whether or not such loyalty makes sense for the individual. And when people are competing for scarce resources, they naturally look for allies and supporters; nationality can be an easy way of deciding who’s a friend and who’s a foe. (Ditto for such factors as ethnicity, race and religion.)

The tribal instinct in human beings is very strong.

12

Yeah, but it’s just that you have no choice in where you’re born. I can see being proud of your adopted country. Immigrants, coming to the U.S. or Italy of their own free will, trying to build a new future, becoming accepted and citizens - I get their pride (and I do get that the U.S. was built by these people) but flagwaving, jingoism and, for that matter, milder form of patriotism isn’t restricted to the U.S.

Sure, but tribes aren’t 9, 60 or 300 million people. I can feel something akin to patriotism about my own town, but not on a national scale.

13

I consider myself patriotic but rarely show any outward signs of it. English patriotism has long been hijacked by nationalists. I would happily wave the English flag if not for the (IMO successful) attempts by groups (BNP, football hooligans) to twist it’s meaning.

I hold no reverence to the flag itself, just the message behind it.

So a negative would be that it opens the door to nationalists.

14

IMO that’s more of a nationalistic attitude than a patriotic one. To me, patriotism is having such a strong connection to your country that you do things (sometimes at your own expense) to try and make it a better place.

15

But the tribal instinct can be directed towards or attached to many things: a nation, a religion, race, ethnicity, a political party or ideology, a street gang, a social class, even a sports team or a gardening club.* It’s even possible for a person to have passionate attachments to several different groups. A man might be, for example, a devout Catholic, a deeply patriotic American, a passionate fan of the New York Yankees. It’s nature’s way of bonding individuals to groups. Granted, the group can sometimes be more imaginary than real. In ancient Rome, the chariot racing teams in the Colosseum were identified by color, and they had their passionate fans who sometimes rioted and fought each other in the streets. For several generations after chariot races were no longer held, people still thought of themselves as Reds, Greens or Blues, even though they had no idea why.

*Or even an actual tribe! :smiley:

16

I don’t get patriotism either. I live here because it’s what I’m familiar with. If I had to live somewhere else, I’d adapt. I’d miss some things, I’m sure, and find new good things to replace them.

The land mass the US occupies has some neat stuff. There are some neat people here. I like some things about American culture.

And that’s about it.

17

I agree with you. It makes no sense. If you’ve ever traveled within the US, you instantly feel stupid saying Rah Rah My Home State. The other states are just fine, too. And once you leave your country, that same effect should also hit you: Why have I always been told “We are the greatest, we have the best system, we can learn nothing from the rest of the world.”

I remember as a kid being “loyal” to my school until I met some kids from other schools at the YMCA. Then school loyalty seemed shallow and callow and hollow.
I got the same feeling when I first learned about sports teams trading players around. I felt cheated. Here I was rooting for the “home team” and all our best hockey players were Canadians.

18

This.

Also, I don’t see the point in adding together the things you are proud of and the things you aren’t proud of and putting them all in one big lump of pride for your country. If your politicians are bad, but your armed forces are good, why can’t you just be proud of the soldiers and not proud of the politicians, rather than a general “hooray for my country”? Patriotism for a country is by its nature a collection of these smaller signs, and I suppose I just don’t get why you have to generalise it, especially when you’re letting in the bad things as well.

19

Patriotism has a lot to do with security. We feel safe when we are marching shoulder to shoulder and waving the flag. I was alive during WWII when patriotism was a its peak. We were like one family then, and it felt good.

Another thought: if some alien force should attack this planet, as in “Independence Day” the whole world would become patriots of planet earth as in the movie. We would forget our petty differences to fight our common enemy together. Patriotism has a lot to do with security.

20

But (at least to me) that isn’t patriotism at all. Patriotism has nothing to do with taking pride in where you happened to be born–it’s all about taking pride in where you choose to live.

I happened to be born in New York State. Doesn’t do a thing for me. Don’t feel a twinge of patriotism or support. I choose to live in Montana. I love this place, and I work to make it better.

If I detested the United States, I’d move (probably to Scotland, although possibly Canada). Hopefully, I’d like it there and become a patriot in my new country.

But as an American patriot, I feel that I live in a great place–it just needs some work. A little paint, some new carpet, a bunch of fresh politicians: man this place would be paradise.