This OP stems from a debate I’ve been having in another thread. I believe the US to be the greatest nation on Earth. At the same time, I would expect that Coldfire believes the Netherlands to be the greatest nation on Earth, and Matt_Mcl believes the same about Canada. Elian’s father is a patriotic Cuban. Everyone believes that his nation is the greatest, just as he believes his mother to be the best mother in the world.
Why is it that Americans seem to hate their country? I have
heard so many comments over the years that America is evil and corrupt, that it is an oppressor of other nations, that it is sexist and racist and without any redeeming features.
Our history is definitely checkered with disgraceful episodes(read Lies My Teacher Told Me by James
Loewen), but I still love my country. I tear up when I hear The Star-Spangled Banner. I admire the Founding Fathers. I believe that America is a wonderfully diverse and open country. Am I alone in this?
You aren’t describing patriotism but nationalism. My understanding of the difference: patriotism is love and pride in one’s own country, people, tribe, whatever; and nationalism is this feeling plus a belief that one’s own country is greater than others, or the greatest. Nationalism, like religion, has led to a lot misery in the world. (It doesn’t necessarily lead to bad things, but often does in practice.) One can be a patriot and not a nationalist; I am, for one.
The attitude of Americans hating their own country I have seen called ethnofugalism. Usually the term is used in reference to “liberal white guilt”, but I think it applies to what you’re talking about. I can’t explain why some people are like that, though.
I’m not convinced, really, that ANYONE legitimately despises their own country, except for extreme radicals who actually defect. Michael Moriarty, the actor, abandoned the USA for Canada over a variety of political opinions, though it should be noted that Michael Moriarty is completely nuts.
If there is one lesson I have learned in life, it is this: What people say they value means nothing. People’s values are reflected only by their actions.
All the eggheads, campus radicals and Wobblies who shriek and holler about how the USA (or, here, Canada) bites the big one do so without ever making any effort to actually LEAVE the country or stop enjoying its benefits. The simple fact is that if you choose to continue living in the United States when it isn’t terribly hard to go somewhere else, you are establishing beyond any doubt that you, at some level, consider the United States to be the best place for you to live. You can rationalize it any way you want, but if you voluntarily choose something you are placing value on it.
People bitch at their own country for three reasons:
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IT’S FASHIONABLE TO DO SO. It’s cool and hip to hate the status quo because it shows you’re rebellious and with it and better than what exists around you. So it has been pretty much since World War I and even before. Being opposed to the mainstream is a way to make your life sound exciting; that’s why you get so much of this at universities, university students being people who crave excitement though they’re the most boring people on the planet.
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IT’S EASY AND GRATIFYING. It’s a lot easier to find fault in a country you’re surrounded in than a country across an ocean. People like to bitch, and if an American’s going to bitch, who is s/he better equipped to bitch about than America? I mean, do you even know anything about Belgium you could bitch about? Canadians don’t have any particular reason to bitch about Malaysia, but they have examples of irritating things about their own country - taxes, crappy transit systems, etc. - right in their backyards.
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THEY’RE LEGITIMATELY INTERESTED IN FIXING THINGS. Some of the people you hear complaining don’t hate their country, they just want something fixed. It’s a very short ride from “I love my country” to “My country is perfect,” so don’t mistake “There is something wrong with my country” with “My country sucks ass.” The United States is legitimately a very nice place to live, but lots of people are correct when they point out that it has problems that need fixing, and they’re showing interest and value in the country by complaining about those things.
I agree wholeheartedly with RickJay here, but also want to add another point. Often times people make a distinction internally between the country and its government. While someone may have pride in the nation, it’s underlying principles, and its history (the good bits anyway), they may also hold in contempt the current admininstration, the decisions of the Supreme Court, or the damned Republicans, or the bleeding heart liberals, or other elements of the government. It’s possible to blame and bitch about the government and cry out that the country is going to hell, while still having a sense of love and pride in the nation itself.
I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree with RickJay’s third point and with Ptahlis. As much as some people never seem satisfied with what they have, there are others who jump on anyone who suggests that while things are good, maybe, just maybe, they could be better.
It’s very easy to mistake a specific criticism of one’s country as a criticism of it as a whole. I like living in Britain; I’m relatively happy with it. On the other hand, there are a number of things I don’t like in our political system and in the attitudes that a lot of British people have. Does that mean I hate Britain? Of course not. I’m grateful that I was lucky enough to be brought up in a country that, compared to some others, gives me the safety net and educational opportunities to make the most of my life.
Let’s not forget the Theory of Rising Expectations. I can see it among 2nd generation immigrants in my area (and in whiny college protestors.) Our parents and grandparents did not have it as cushy as we do, yet we expect things to get better.
Anyone in sales knows that satasfaction is often based more one the level of expectation than on the outcome.
NOR had a story on today about a labor dispute among hotel workers in Minnesota. Many fled war torn countries where they were impoverished. A woman whose husband and children had been killed in Somalia was complaining that her wages and health benefits were too low and that she was willing to “fight for her rights.”
Hmmmm, Teh Somali warlord killed my family, but this union is a bastard because I have a $20 co-pay. Sounds reasonable to me.
I love this country.
RickyJay made excellent points, and I absolutely agree that we have legitimate problems that need to be corrected. I am in no way a “Love it or leave it” advocate. Folks like MLK and Thoreau were great patriots because they addressed injustices in our country.
I’m talking about people like a former Marxist roommate said that America needed to burn for her crimes. I’m talking about colleagues who sneer at soldiers willing to die to defend their nation. I’m talking about folks like Ruadh who
believe that new citizens have no obligations to America.
I don’t remember Ruadh saying that, goboy, and I know others have tried to point that out too (here).
I understand her to be saying that everyone should try to fit in to a new country; but that you should not have to give up your previous culture or history.
If I emigrated to the US, I would make the effort to learn the laws and customs. I would take an interest in the workings of the country; I would use my vote(s). I would not deny that I was born British, or lose any interest in my birth country. Why should I?
If someone immigrates to the UK I will expect them to pay taxes; I expect them to follow the laws of the land. I expect them to at least make an effort to fit in with the culture (say, in terms of public etiquette). Do I expect them to sing the national anthem? No. Do I expect them to learn the language? Their choice. It’s no skin off my nose if they don’t - they may never be able to sell me a product or service, or interact with me socially, but I won’t hate them for it. Do I expect them to go teary-eyed at seeing the Union Jack? No. Do I expect them to love the royal family? Hell no.
And then there are those of us that believe that jingoism in any form (be it patriotism or nationalism or whatever) is a bad thing. When I read the topic title, I thought “It’s about damned time.” It’s not that I hate the U.S. anymore than I love it. I enjoy being here, and think it may be better than certain other places, but I will not let my enjoyment get in the way of being critical (by which I mean “analytical and observant of” not “mean and nasty to”) of my government. All forms of patriotism involve some level of blind faith in powers that be, as well as belief in the status quo, of which I have none of either.
jay said
Not necesarily. I think that patriotism has more to do with a strong belief in and love of the culture and values. I don’t trust the powers that be, but I believe american culture and values make us great and successful.
I can say “fuck the politicians” and “God bless America” in teh same breath.
[hoisting down the rah-rah rag…]
And what if you choose to stay on property you have acquired peacefully and honestly, but you choose to withhold your consent to be governed?
Why, that would be impractical!
I don’t think Canada is the best country in the world (I haven’t been to every country, so I have no basis for evaluation).
I love my country. However, that doesn’t mean that I think everything about its current state is peachy keen. To the contrary, I think that a very great deal of stuff up here is in a complete state of shit.
This is where I take issue with the “love it or leave it” stance. It’s inevitably applied to people trying to change their countries by methods in accordance with democracy. TO the contrary: my activism and democratic expressions are a deep expression of love of my country. I believe it can be better than what the last few governments have turned it into. It means I care enough about my country to try to heal its wounds.
In fact, when I fight in favour of medicare and social programs and against poverty, police brutality, and unregulated globalization, I’m fighting against those who truly do not love their country - those who sit back, relax, and watch as its structures and citizens are cynically manipulated and exploited for personal rather than public interest. These idiotes (as the ancient Greeks put it) - those who have no social ties and “ignore all but Self” - simply do not care; they do not love their democracy enough to participate in it and prevent disaster and degradation, nor to speak out against injustice.
Who loves their country more: those who fight to improve it and bring it to its best emanation, or those who simply can’t be bothered?
Gilligan
Yeah. God only knows what could happen. And we can’t have that.
Well, our views on the nature of patriotism differ. I would never hate anyone for not speaking my language. I would, however, think of him as an ingrate.
Am I a jingoist? No, I have come to my opinions through years of life abroad. In addition to Korea, I have lived in or spent chunks of time in Japan, Hong Kong, Macau, China, Thailand, the Philippines, Malaysia, Taiwan, India, France, the UK, Italy, the Netherlands, Mexico, Guatemala, and Morocco. I have seen enough of the world to know that America really is a great place. I expect other folks to love their countries just as much as I love mine.
I’m critical of my country. Freedom of speech is part of what makes America great. We have no Official Secrets Act, we don’t suppress coverage of trials, we can even bust our president for getting nasty with an intern.
I equate love of country with love for one’s parents. You can see your parents’ faults, and you can love them anyway.
People who take their parents for granted or treat them with ingratitude are pitiable creatures.
I feel sorry for folks who don’t appreciate the trials their ancestors endured to make America work. Yes, we screw up, yes, we have perpetrated injustices upon minorities, but we strive to make something better.
My list of great Americans to remember on the Fourth of July
would include Rosa Parks, Thomas Jefferson, Sojourner Truth, Benjamin Franklin, Cesar Chavez, Martin Luther King, George Washington, Susan B. Anthony, Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt, Eugene V. Debs, Henry David Thoreau, John Muir, Harriet Tubman, and Thomas Edison.
America is an ideal not yet realized; a nation where the people take responsiblity for their actions, where folks of different races and religions can live together in mutual respect, where the government truly is of the people, by the people, and for the people.
Am I an idealist? Absolutely! Without idealists, very little would happen in this country.
The reason I believe immigrants should speak English is that I firmly believe we should be one nation composed of many parts(e pluribus unum). If we all Balkanize this country into squabbling little special interests, Latinos pitched against Anglos against Asians against African Americans, then our nation cannot long survive. Do we want to be like other nations where public offices are reserved for specific racial and religious groups(the president has to be a Latino, the vice-president has to be Anglo, at least two cabinet posts have to be saved for Muslims)? Or can we use our diversity as strength, to incorporate the best parts of other nations and cultures into our own? Yeah, I know, it sounds like the Borg. 
I believe all citizens, including the native-born as well as new immigrants, have a duty to participate in the running of the nation, to vote, to demand accountability from their leaders, to think for themselves and not to be sheep. I believe that we should take care of ourselves, and only ask for help from the government as a last resort. I believe in saluting the flag, not to pay tribute to a piece of cloth, but to what it symbolizes, the sovereignty of the people of the United States.
My name is Joe, and I am a Canadian, er, American.(it’s a beer commercial)
So, those who are against social programs and do not believe that ther is an injustice don’t love their countries?
Personally, I am fighting against socialists and proponents of the welfare state because *they[/] are destroying our country!
RickJay brings up beautiful points. i am a patriot, i served in my countries armed forces, and did so proudly. i am proud to be an american, i love my country, and i do think it’s the best country around. Not that it’s better than other countries except in that it’s my favorite country. I have been around the world a bit, i’ve seen what it’s like out there. The people who complain, for the most part IMO, seem to take the USA for granted, and either forget what was beforehand, or don’t realize what it’s like outside. I don’t believe patriotism is dead though, but i do believe the world has taken a turn where it no longer seems to be as important where the borders lay, but what political prowess, and influence a country has. Technology and information, media and fashion, these seem to be the things that are important in todays world for the most part. This is what i see. I complain once in a while about my country because i believe things can be changed for the better, i do vote, i do try to help when i can in my community.
Zam: The basis of Libertarianism is that society does not exist in any meaningful way. That means that no national society can exist and that everyone ought to look out for themselves.
Interestingly, the word idiot comes from the ancient Greek idiotes, meaning one who looks out only for himself and doesn’t concern himself with society and the nation.
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The simple fact is that if you choose to continue living in the ghetto when it isn’t terribly hard to go somewhere else, you are establishing beyond any doubt that you, at some level, consider the ghetto to be the best place for you to live. You can rationalize it any way you want, but if you voluntarily choose something you are placing value on it.
Does anyone else see problems with this line of reasoning? 1, most people can not just pick up and move to another country. 2, most people are born here, they do not choose to be born here.
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One of the big problems in the Balkans, in case you weren’t paying attention, was the insitence of the Serbian on repressing other cultures. Of not letting the Albanians speak albanian, making them speak Serbian.
Do you really think, that by not insiting that people speak english, we are balkanizing our country? Language does not make the country. We can still be one nation that speaks different languages. Have you ever been to Belgium? They do pretty well with 3 official languages and several unofficial ones.
I was going to write a reply to the OP (since it was clear the minute I saw the subject line and OP’er that it was about me), but mattk pretty much nailed exactly what I was thinking.
I’m curious about whether there are any non-Americans who take goboy’s viewpoint - namely, that you shouldn’t go live in a country unless you’re prepared to begin living your life in every way as though you were born there. Even if that means giving up your native language, not befriending anyone else from your home country, etc.
If immigrating really meant you should not only embrace your new country, but COMPLETELY reject your old, there would be a LOT fewer immigrants.
Maybe that’s goboy’s point.