Vestal Blue, may I have a word with you?

In this thread you said:

Are you really suggesting that American citizens who do not accept your “biblical principles” should leave their own country?

You’re damn straight they did:

The founding fathers were also smart enough to realize they weren’t perfect, and allowed for improvements:

I was born in Shields Township, Illinois, U.S.A. I’ve been an American citizen all my life, never been anything but an American citizen, and have no desire to be anything but an American. I’ll be God-dammed–if you’ll pardon the expression–if I’ll either accept your “biblical principles” or leave my country.

(Oh, and please feel free to search the Constitution for your “biblical principles”.)

Thank you.

Vestal… from this site

Thomas Paine - I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant
church, nor by any church that I know of…Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

It was during John Adam’s administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that “the government of the
United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.”
From Thomas Jefferson *The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of
Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give
employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within
the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that
nonsense can never be explained." *

James Madison- *Religious bondage shackles and
debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and
indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” *

and from Ben Franklin - As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion…has received various corrupting
Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho’ it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having
never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble."

and while you’re at it… and I urge everyone to… take this Quiz

You might learn something

Hey, 18 out of 21 - not bad. Although it was thanks to oldscratch that I got the treaty question right. :slight_smile:

I got 19 out of 21. I blew the two Pilgrim questions, which is stupid, I should have known better.

And I’m not a member but I still feel the need to plug site page whenever the subject of the Founding Fathers’ beliefs comes up:

Say, should I e-mail Vestal Blue or something and let him know I’ve opened this thread? I haven’t actually ever opened a Pit thread to respond to a particular poster before, so I’m not really sure about the protocol involved. (Of course, it may be that V.B. already has seen the thread, and simply chooses not to respond.)

Jeez. A no show in the pit? Have you emailed Vestal yet? MAybe post a link in one of the other threads… I’d like to hear some kind of reponse.

Is it possible that the intent was not get out you non-christian bastards, but when in Rome do as the Romans? The idea that if you are going to move to a country for all it can offer you and your family, you should become a citizen of that country and not bring your country with you.

I think that is one interpretation.

Oh, I’m sorry sir, you seem to have forgotten to check your old country at the door :rolleyes:

Da Fuck?

It is a figure of speech you idiot. Like people who think that because their religion says they can wear a sword in their turban they should be able to violate the law and carry a hidden weapon. This is what I mean. If you are going to move to country, follow thier laws and customs. Now, our country allows for freedom of religion in that you can believe whatever you want. You can worship yourself as a god if you want. This is a good thing and I think that people need and deserve this right, until it violoates the law and/or endangers others.

Alright, listen up bitchcakes.

First off, there’s a difference between following our laws and following our customs.
Obviously, everybody has to follow our laws. If that’s all you were saying then you need to take that Johnny McObvious persona of yours and merge it with Captain McFuckingSaysThingsStraightforward, then maybe you won’t come off as a proto-supremacist fuck.

If you think people should follow “our” customs (what exactly are our customs anyway? And is it different in SoCal where there’s so many Mexicans? Or in downtown B-more: 70-some% black?), you’re just a sputtering xenophobic little gibblet.

Of course, I was just being a bit lighthearted about it (bloody fucking obvious, really, even to the untrained eye), and don’t appreciate being called an idiot by an over-mentholated waste of a few cubic feet.

Got it, bitchcakes?

Bitchcakes?? BITCHCAKES?!?! That is hilarious. I don’t think that I have ever been called such a ridiculus name!!

THIS IS THE PIT! How could I post a retort with out a mild insult? Get over being called an idiot.

Now,I do think that it is important that if you are coming to a country for its customs, freedoms and laws that you should abide by them. I am not saying that I have anything against any particular religion or group. Nor am I saying that these people do not have rights, they do. HOWEVER, I do not agree with the country losing the beauties of what it is because people bring the problems of their countries with them. THAT is all I am saying. So chill out.

but keep calling me bitchcakes, it is cute and somewhat endearing, not at threatening.

please explain further

Please don’t…

::::::: Hey Buck, come back here. This is getting crazy… :::::::::

Can I be Bitchcakes? Please? I agree with Nika that its endearing.

I think I probably agree with Myrr21 on the OP, but I still want to be called Bitchcakes.

[sub] Sorry for the hijack…back to fighting ignorance, all of you![/sub]

…'Cept for you, Medea’s Child: you can just think of it as only a term of endearment :wink:

  • BZZZTTT! Wrong Answer! *
    What the hell kinda problems are these people bringing with them? You know, I’ve personally introduced two friends of mine to each other (Romanian and Hungarian–“natural enemies the in the wild”) and watched them not drag their heritage into it. In fact, pretty much the whole damn country seems to be handling this pretty well, all things considered.

So you tell me what beauty we’re losing ‘cause of these damn ferigners. Ah mean, besides the righteouuss purity o’ our migh’y fihne Chreeistian ways. Damn ferigners, with thar steerange fud and clothin. T’aint nat’rul :rolleyes:

What’s so goddamn hard about “glad you’re here, obey the laws, enjoy your stay/citizenship”? Is it really that Christ-leapin’ difficult?

As for the purpose of this fine, fine forum, you seem to have missed the point. It’s here for you to be able to call me an idiot for no goddamn reason (or for a goddamn reason); it’s not here for you to feel obliged call me an idiot for no goddamn reason (that’s just pathetic).

Now then, strumpet, get the fuck outta Dodge

Damn, forgot about the apostrophe in the subject thing. It was supposed to read:
** Think of “bitchcakes” as a term of endearment for the terminally dimwitted…**

Assbitches, the lot of you; where my gun at?


First off, I didn’t move here–I was born in Illinois. My ancestors have probably lived here for a couple of centuries. I say this not to claim any superiority over more recent immigrants, but as a practical matter, if the U.S. is some kind of Christians-only club, then where am I supposed to go?

Second, the United States of America is anti-theocratic and secular to its core. Its Declaration of Independence proclaims that governments derive their power from the consent of the governed, not from divine right (although the DoI does articulate a theory of natural rights based on divine endowment); its Constitution does not mention God once, and only mentions religion in the context of telling the government to keep its hands off. It’s true that America as a nation derives from a number of other embryonic nations (Massachusetts, Virginia, and so on) which were either explicitly intended as theocratic utopias, or at least had (as a matter of course) official State Religions. However, the foundation of the United States essentially involved the repudiation of all such notions. The United States is no more a “Christian Nation” than it is a monarchy.

So, to all would-be theocrats or religious supremacists of whatever stripe, I say: The United States is a secular nation. If you don’t like it–leave.

Say, Nika, what set off this immigrant-bashing jag, anyway? The post that that set me off that I quoted in the O.P. was from a thread on gay rights. I don’t think your typical gay or lesbian American just got off the boat from Gayland or Lesbania (although I suppose some Lesbians are Greek). As far as it goes, I don’t totally disagree with the idea that immigrants should be expected to assimililate the good things about our laws and culture. That would certainly include the idea that the United States is a secular nation; i.e., no attempts to establish a Wahhabite theocracy–we’ve got enough problems with our own home-grown fundies. If you want to go off about arranged marriage or veiling or some damn thing, start your own thread–I might even join you. But as far as immigrants’ religion, I’d have to agree with Jefferson: “it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” (Well, okay, if someone comes around the SDMB and posts their belief that there are twenty gods, I might argue with them a bit.)

Well, I only got 14. Damn. Oh well, they rated that as “Congratulations! Better informed than most Americans”

Oh well, seeing as this is that pit; hell, I’m not American, and I still know more about the bloody place than you do! “Better informed than most Amercians”? Damning with faint praise…