Vestal Blue, may I have a word with you?

The BBQ Pit
21

I am not christian. Nor do I have any problem with cultures of ANY religion. I just think that if you are going to live is a country you should live by its traditions. THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING!

I am NOT insulting immigrants. I have nothing against anyone living here, leaving here, coming here, or anywhere else. My opinion has nothing to do with any consistution or anything. I just think that whatever you country you go to you should live by their customs and not violate their customs because your own tell you you can. Get over it guys. I am not a Freak telling you all how you should behave.

In my first post was just to pose another point of view. Go bck and read what I said, it is not attacking anyone.

This is all I have to say about this.

22

And this is exactly why you’re getting jumped, bitchcakes.

You see, Thanksgiving is a pretty old tradition for many Americans around here, but theere’s no reason a single American should give a damn about it. Heck, I don’t even care some citizen decides that the fourth of July is just another day, and spends it writing up a report for work. Or how about standing for the national anthem? I don’t, and my family has been here for well over a century. Or how about the Pledge of Allegiance? As soon as I learned that I have a constitutional right not to say it in school, I damn well stopped (5th grade, maybe). So should I be thrown out of this country cause I don’t “fit in”?

You may not realize it, and you may not have intended it, but you were attacking immigrants, however subtly. It’s that sort of attitude–“why aren’t they trying to fit in with the rest of us?”–that gets played upon to create fear and/or loathing of them, later on.

And you still haven’t shown me an example of the beauty we’ve lost by any of this…

23

I gotta agree with both of y’all.

On one side, America is the land of freedom, baby! You can worship as many gods as you want, be any color, be from any country, and you can find a niche in the United States. Unlike other countries, America has no indigenous population (not even Indians; they’re immigrants, too, from Siberia,) so we have created the metaphor of the melting pot, a stew of diverse ingredients creating a wonderful whole. America derives its strength from the vigor of immigration,

BUT

Freedom does not come without obligations. The language of the USA is English, not Korean, not Spanish, not Tagalog, not Arabic. I have lived in other countries and traveled in many more, and I ALWAYS made an effort to learn the local language. I learned Korean, Mandarin, and Spanish in my sojourns abroad as a temporary guest worker. Should we demand less of people who want to be citizens? Why do I have to learn Urdu to talk to a cab driver in DC?

As far as I am concerned, there are only a few obligations that should bind all Americans, native-born and immigrants alike:

1 Be loyal to the Constitution and to the US government.
2 Learn the language, folks.
3 Vote!
4 Pay your taxes.
5 Learn US history (I put that in because I have come across so many blockhead Americans during this election mess who know NOTHING of their nation’s history)

24

Thank you for saying so well what I could not. I think that both sides of your arguement are valid and that is what I have been trying to say all along, I just suck and don’t know how to make my ideas heard.

Well put

25

MEBuckner,

I fully and wholly believe that there are exactly 20 gods in existance. So, what are you going to do about it?

26

I took the quiz and I scored a 19, “First Amendment Scholar”! Woo-hoo!

27

Guess what? We don’t have an official language. Nope. English sure ain’t the language of the US. In fact, given current rates, it may not even be the most widely spoken language in the US, given a few years. It’s already a secondary language in many areas bordering on Mexico. I really can’t stress this enough, because so many people seem to think we have an official language, and that it’s English. So let’s try italics: *we do not have an official language; therefore our official language is not english. *
That good enough?

Well, that is the law. And we already separated law from this, because it’s so damn fucking obvious that everybody should obey the law, since to do otherwise would be gasp illegal!

See above.

While you should not have any right to complain about how the country is being run if you don’t vote, there’s no reason people should vote if they honestly don’t want to. I’d rather not have people too apathetic to vote involved in choosing our leaders.

Well, obviously. It is the law, afterall.

I agree that this is a worthy goal, though I’m curious as to what level of education on the issue you feel people should strive for. Given that “basic” US history is filled with half-truths and outright falsehoods, how far beyond that does the average immigrant need to progress? Hopefully, a US resident would have had a decent US history education in high school (I know that this is more often not the case, but the state of education is another topic entirely), but what about someone who grew up elsewhere–where they didn’t necessarily give a damn about James K Polk’s policies on Indian affairs? Just curious.

Overall, though, I still can’t say that this is an obligation. This is something that maybe people should do, but the only thing that they must do is obey our laws. If people want to come to the US ignorant of our history, with no intention of voting, and speaking only Russian, let em; they’re still an asset.

28

[hijack]

I love the term “Bitchcakes”
I think I’ll be using that on my boyfriend tonight, along with “Don’t ever stop fucking me!” (see MPSIMS thread of same title)

[/hijack]

:wink:

29

[hijack]

isn’t it great!!! And he thought he would hurt my lil’ feelings! hee hee

[/hijack]

30

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Myrr21 *
**

My country ( I am canadian) does have official languages. They are English and French and I think everyone should at least make an attempt to learn one of them, which, I don’t care, but one.

31

De jure, no, English isn’t our offical language, but it is the language of the original colonists and the time-honored and accepted language of the United States. But if you re-read my post, I never said “official language.” Read without preconceptions.

How are they assets? I have no problem with encouraging educated people to come here. I do have a problem with uneducated people coming here and draining our already burdened schools and social services.

It doesn’t matter if someone grew up elsewhere. If they wish to be citizens, they need to know who the guys on the money are, be able to tell at least the basics of how our government was established and the specifics of how
America grew, its major conflicts and so on. BTW, remind me to tell you how Polk engineered the Mexican War as an intentional land grab.

You see, the white side of my family built this nation. While your folks were back in the old country, mine were here. Sugan Jones, a direct ancestor, was a captain in the South Carolina militia in the Revolution. My family has fought in every conflict this nation has had. My father, a Choctaw from Oklahoma, was a medic in the Korean War. I view American history as my history.

Nobody requires you to be a patriot or to love your country.
You are free to mock her traditions and her heritage, but it doesn’t make you look good.

32

goboy: *I have no problem with encouraging educated people to come here. I do have a problem with uneducated people coming here and draining our already burdened schools and social services. *

Um, do you have a cite for the claim that this is actually happening? Most non-citizens (legal or illegal aliens, uneducated or otherwise) are ineligible for a great many government services, and most of them are law-abiding people who are holding down jobs, building communities, and supporting themselves and their families (after all, if they get into trouble, they are very likely to be deported). Especially now in an economic boom time, employers depend heavily on non-citizen low-wage workers, as this article points out.

It doesn’t matter if someone grew up elsewhere. If they wish to be citizens, they need to know who the guys on the money are, be able to tell at least the basics of how our government was established and the specifics of how America grew, its major conflicts and so on.

Sounds reasonable to me, and I hope we all do the same in the case of any other country we reside in for more than a few weeks.

You see, the white side of my family built this nation.

Wow, all by themselves?! Impressive. Where do I send the thank-you note? :rolleyes:

*While your folks were back in the old country, mine were here. Sugan Jones, a direct ancestor, was a captain in the South Carolina militia in the Revolution. My family has fought in every conflict this nation has had. My father, a Choctaw from Oklahoma, was a medic in the Korean War. I view American history as my history. *

Very nice, but that doesn’t actually make you (or me, the daughter of a DAR and a WWII vet, since we’re showing credentials) more of an American than any other citizen. Nor does it entitle us to credit for anything our ancestors did. You may have family reasons to feel strongly about these matters, but you are not actually more entitled to make decisions about proper citizenship qualifications than the Indonesian immigrant with poor English grammar and a heavy accent who just became a citizen last week.

33

Nika: T’wasn’t meant to hurt; that’s why I used something quirky and silly like bitchcakes. I didn’t think you honestly meant any harm…

Ok, so how about what I mentioned? You know, the fact that much of southwestern United States is dominated by Spanish speakers, and that the numbers are growing rapidly–to the point where it could easily outstrip English? Does that change your opinion? Or how about the old lady who lives next to my Uncle that only speaks Italian? Should she leave, even though she’s been living here for 30-some years and has gotten along fine?

Hooray for xenophobic paranoia! I bet you were one of those people who voted (or would have) to end bilingual education in SoCal, I think it was (or was it Texas? Or both?).

Another time. Besides, I am already quite familiar with James K Polk’s career; you see, I do know US HIstory–having had quite a good class, despite my “awful” public education.

You arrogant prick. First off, I’m not sure if I do have much of a non-white side to my family way back somewhere (if so, it sure hasn’t passed along), but if I did, they did at least as much to build this country as anyone else. But that aside, who the fuck cares about your long and glorious fucking family history? Hell, about a quarter of my family was moonshiners in the hills of West Virginia. Some royal asshole somewhere back along my line wrote the Virginia fucking Declaration of Independance–which predated and served as a model for the national one. He’s still just some rich fuck way back when. Half my family were your run-of-the-mill Scottish immigrants working in some factory in the North. All that aside, who the fuck cares? You know what matters to me? That all 3 my parents and 2/3 of my grandparents (thanks to remarriage) are/were school teachers. They’re doing something right now to improve the fucking US of A. Of all the arrogant, self-righteous “my family was here first” bullshit… sigh

Or here’s another case: my neighbor is a direct decendant of the first man hanged in the US; the guy nearly blew up the Mayflower by mistake. But I’ll be damned if his family (his son made it across ok, or something like that) didn’t help found the frickin nation. So how should he feel about that? “ooh, look at me; my lily-white family history trumps your family history, cause they were here first, even if they did almost write the Mayflower outta the history books.”

Ahh…I’m just too pissed at this half-assed attitude to type anymore on it; go reread Kimstu’s post. I have more respect for each person from across our borders trying to make a living here than for anybody who trumps their family history as a reason they should get to say what immigrants should do.

You know, I mock a lot of things. Lots. But I’m still working to be a good citizen, and intend to work as an educator. You know why I don’t stand for the Anthem? Because it’s just a song that has nothing to do with my feelings for the country (and of course, it’s about a single stand against the British in one city, while they were burning our goddamn Capitol). I don’t say the Pledge because it has “under God” in it, and because I don’t owe any allegiance to the flag–and often very little to the country, when it does reprehensible things.

34

[[[[[[ I don’t say the Pledge because it has “under God” in it, and because I don’t owe any allegiance to the flag–and often very little to the country, when it does reprehensible things.]]]]]]] <-- M21

… Until you got to here. So, you go to where ever country and make an ass ass ass, (as much as I like} out of your self and then yell to Unca Sammy that your an US of A citizen and want help with your little problem and he says, “Nah, you were being a ‘shithead’ so I’m going to let them kick your ass. Sorry, but what you did was ‘reprehensible.’”

That is okay in your book? I try to have ‘allegiance’ to my fellow country men, not the government, cause the fellow country men are the government, no wait… can’t have that. I am alleging to myself cause you are all to stupid to live… Yeah, that’s the ticket… Got to earn my respect by gum, not going to help you till “I” think you’ve done something for me.

::::::::: sigh :::::::::: I bet you get your pay in advance too huh? Must be nice…

35

eh?

36

It’s farily simple, see? When the country does something I find morally bankrupt, I do not support it.

That means that I would not aid in any way a war effort that I don’t fully support (I wouldn’t actually fight in any war, but I’d at least make the effort to help some way else in one that I believed in). That means that–if flag burning were to be made illegal–I would not report any such activity, and might consider engaging in it myself. If things got bad enough, I would leave. I have no allegiance to the country beyond what I would have for a person.

As long as I act as a good citizen, I expect to receive the protection and benefits of living in the country. When I stop (i.e. breaking a law), I no longer am due all of those benefits–just the ones that are considered basic human rights (and I know that some countries don’t protect those, but many do, and ideally all would). Likewise, when the country does something that I feel is horribly wrong, they don’t get my support, except what is mandated by law. The same as with a person, I deal with the govt: if it does some things wrong (like pass laws I don’t agree with, on minor issues), I can forgive it and move on (and obey said laws); if it does something too terrible, I will no longer associate with it (e.g. go elsewhere). Likewise, if I behave ok, I will be forgiven a few trespasses (maybe with some jail time or community service); if I do something too bad, I will be removed from society. It’s not a perfect analogy, by oh well.

So this is why I don’t say the pledge. To me, the pledge represents a higher level of allegiance than I feel for the country. I don’t pledge allegance to people either; they know by my actions whether they have my support or not–and know what they might do to lose it. If I go bomb someplace in Britain, I’m certainly not about to go whining about “but I’m a US citizen” and expect America to get me out of it.
If you want to pledge yourself to a government–in right or in wrong–be my guest. I won’t, however. The government is here to serve me, not me to serve it. The country is made up of individuals, and they get my allegiance based on their actions, and based on the fact that they are another human being. I have no more love in my heart or my actions for an American than I do for a Mexican, or Canadian, simply because they were born on one side of an imaginary line. The country is a collection of these individuals, and gets my allegiance only insofar as it is acting as a collection of decent human beings.

Ok, you’ve just lost me here. Who’s too stupid to live? What does that have to do with this? Could you try writing something that appears to be more than a random collection of english words and phrases?

What does my pay schedule have to do with anything? In fact, I think it may be more condusive to my point; I work based on the fact that–without prior knowlege–I trust an employer to compensate me for my time. If they violate that trust (by not paying me), then I will stop working for said employer. If it’s a matter of one check being late, then that’s not too bad. If it is a repaeted failure, I will not continue to work for that employer, because I have no grandiose notions of allegance to them. In the same way, a country that repeatedly violates my trust in it–and violates in a particularly offensive manner–loses my allegiance, and must work to win it back.

37

A few typically off-kilter perspectives:

The US can be messy, over-the-top and rowdy, but the basic idea is that people are the government, no group will dominate over another, and the whole shootin’ match will remain vital only as long as it can change. And it depends on secular law.

Ergo, we don’t have an “official language”–because realities change. Many “traditions” don’t cut the mustard because so many of 'em are based in narrow contexts. A western European tradition may well be meaningless at best and offensive at worst to those of other backgrounds.

It’s called separation of church and state–and also implies a tougher, giddier reality. Don’t want to learn the dominant language? So don’t; none is defined or mandatory. It’s the individual’s choice, balancing cultural identity, broader social connections and opportunities, etc. Big Brother doesn’t dictate and assumes that free people can settle issues among themselves.

Myrr21: welcome to the 60’s. Forget the fashions and hype; it was a time when people marched, were gassed, had police dogs set on them, and were hated–and some died–for insisting that civil rights laws be fairly enforced. And then there was 'Nam: an undeclared war, a failure of politics, sense and government, was killing people in their own country and sending Americans home in body bags–while politicians dithered and military idols tossed away the lives under their command.

It was a tense, unsettled time. Maybe the personal can illustrate: my father, a conservative Republican and a former WWII Army Master Sgt., offered to drive 2 of my male pals west and up through the Canadian border where checkpoints don’t exist. He didn’t understand my civil rights marching, but he knew 'Nam wasn’t what he fought for.

Hell, I’m rambling again, but the point is we’re the government. “We” are too variable, and the system too vital, to pin our (evolving) selves down in dogma based on tradition, religion, language, etc. But that comes at a cost. It means involvement and action; not waiting for pundits, radio hate mongers and gov’t. dweebs to get a clue. They’re all reactive; we’re the government, so there’s no waiting for “it” to regain respect.

We’re “it”.

Veb

38

Okay, try to be inslutting okay. Just cause you don’t like the way I write, jeez at least do a decent job of flaming if your going to stay down here. That is the lamest inslutting there is,

No, since you are the highest ideal and the be all end all in your world and will stand so long as you agree with it all… he he he (hope you live throught the next 20 years)

[[[[[[if it does something too terrible, I will no longer associate with it (e.g. go elsewhere). Likewise, if I behave ok, I will be forgiven a few trespasses ]]]]]]] <-- M 21

So tomorrow you find that your parents did something very morally wrong, not legally wrong and now you , since your code has been violated, are going to dump them. No longer support them, just leave? Cut them off?

Just for saying: the country does something tonight that you can not, will not tolerate. Where you going to go? You got the money? The right to go? I assume {free straight line} the 21 in your handle means yo are at least 21… Got your passport? Got your tickets?

Untested morality is meaningless. Actually it is kind of funny.

I’m just trying, heavens knows why, to grt you to think about your grand little speach. That dumb ole saying of “If you don’t believe in something, you’ll fall for anything.” is really true and just believeing in your self based only on your ‘convivtions’ that have not been down any mean streets yet, well… LOL

You been down em? Tell me about them.

[[[[[[[[[While you should not have any right to complain about how the country is being run if you don’t vote, there’s no reason people should vote if they honestly don’t want to. I’d rather not have people too apathetic to vote involved in choosing our leaders. ]]]]]<-- M 21

If they don’t vote how can they? If they get out for what ever reason, does being stupid disqualify them?

[[[[[[The country is a collection of these individuals, and gets my allegiance only insofar as it is acting as a collection of decent human beings. ]]]]]]] <-- M 21

And you get to make that decision? You got all the answers?

My, My.

I have agreed with you through most of the thread untill you started telling the cow how to eat the cabbage which you are not qualified to do, your not a cow and neither am I contrary to popular belief.

Chill…

3½¢ He could no longer rend his foes limb from limb. He could not eat solid food

39

TVeb: I realize that I need to work to change the country, which is why I will stay as long as I feel that I am able to do so. If things got bad enough, though (and looked to remain that way for the indefinite future), I would leave. In particular, I will stay because I am a white male, and will be affected less by many of the things that I consider to be valid reasons to not want to be a citizen anymore. Therefore, I will work against them, rather than leave. But this is getting a bit asinine, anyway. The point remains: there are things that would cause me to want to vacate the premises; I do not owe particualr allegiance to this country, except as far as I choose to carry it. Now then, on to Catboy…

Well, you know me, very inslutting. I sleep with every “in” I can find. If, by chance, you meant “insulting”, you would do well to remember that I really don’t give a damn about you; you’re not worth my time to insult. It takes a lot more than a partial illiterate to get me angry.

I wasn’t flaming. Flaming would be guessing at the marital state of your parents as of your conception, not pointing out the obvious fact that you are incapable of stringing together a coherent sentence.

Yeessssss. And the timecow will be along shortly to keep the Mad Hatter company…

If I found out that they had just murdered my younger brother, then damn straight I would. But my parents have earned a higher level of respect and allegiance than Joe Blow or the US government (having raised me and all), so they get more of it. Simple, n’est-ce pas?

  1. The “21” in my name was random, because when I signed up for my email account “Myrr” was taken, and I just kinda picked a number.
  2. I do, in fact, have a passport handy. Tickets are easily available. But that’s not the point. I do not forsake my country on a whim; it will be made on a careful choice (as to what benefits me, my family, and my friends), and once I have made an effort to change US policy in whatever way I might.
  1. You don’t know what of me has been tested. I wouldn’t claim to know the same of you.
  2. I do not just believe in myself. I belive in humanity, and decency towards people. The people in Canada or Chile are fundamentally no different than the people in the US. Why should I owe any more allegiance to somebody 5 miles south of the border w/ Canada than to someone 5 miles north?

I have no idea what you’re rambling about here. Nothing disqualifies a citizen from voting except their own apathy (and some other technicalities, etc). What’s your point?

I certainly get to make the decision for myself. That’s why I’m talking about my allegiance to the country, not Al Roker’s. Duh.

Umm, whatever. As far as I’m aware, I am me, and as such, I have all the qualifications to make the decisions of what I feel towards the US. If we go back a bit, that was my original point: immigrants do not need to be told by Nika/goboy/whoever what their obligations to the US are beyond simply obeying the laws. Unless of course you feel that you have the right to tell them what they must do?

Is this an attempt at a .sig? Or is it part of your post? If the former, then I am simply curious as to its origin. If the latter, congratualtions on another bewildering statement of questionable meaning and complete irrelevance.

40

Myrr21,

I agree with most of what you said, except for the language part.
[gratuitous temporary hijack}
(That’s ok, I know from your choice of football teams your judgement is suspect about some things. BTW, didja see the Ravens are making plans for the playoffs? What is it the Redskins are making again? Oh, that’s right, they’re reserving tee times. hehee!)
[/gratuitous temporary hijack]

Any country needs a common language, otherwise you are just begging for factionalism.(see Yugoslavia) Yes, I would have voted against dual language measures in the southwest. It’s just another example of pandering to white guilt. Sure, white folks have done a lot of terrible things to supress minorities in American history. So have folks of all ethnicities around the world. As you have stated so well, I am neither guilty nor venerated because for what my ancestors did. In any society, communication is a basic necessity for peaceful interaction. Even Canada, a country that has been around nearly as long as the U.S., experiences tensions between the French speaking people of Qubeck, and the English speaking folks in the rest of the country. While the U.S. does not have an official language, English is the de facto official language. As an American, I am pleased as punch when someone from another country choses to make the U.S. their home. All of their history and culture automatically becomes part of mine at that time, and everyone is richer for it. It is not an unreasonable expectation that they learn to speak the “native” ( quotes 'cuz I KNOW how you could attack that term, but it’s the best to express what I mean)language, if only so I can learn about them, and share their heritage. I would do no less if I moved to a non-English speaking country. This is an idea that goes as far back as the story of the Tower of Babel in Genesis. ( Either history or myth, depending on your POV.)