Hmmm…I just took the test referenced above & got 19 out of 21, thanks to the assist on the treaty question.
Interesting note: the official answer to the question about prayers at school football games left out an interesting tidbit: G. W. Bush, the possible next prez, was on the LOSING side of that court case. Apparently, good believing folks of other faiths are just godless heathens in his opinion. Since this is the pit, thanks to all the dumfucks for voting for that ass.
Somehow, it seems to me that you can’t just chalk this up to “white guilt” and be done with it. This is a case of recognizing that in certain portions of the United States, Spanish is spoken as much, if not more, than English–and therefore providing education aimed at keeping the Spanish-speaking children on track–while they are learning English. The simple fact is that most immigrants do choose to learn at least some English(Here’s some interesting stuff on it). As mentioned in that link, English is not in danger. OTOH, millions of people live in the US speaking only Spanish.
I guess what it boils down to for me is that it’s useful for immigrants to learn the language, but not at all necessary–depending on situation (if you speak only Spanish in SoCal, it’s not too bad, if you speak only Swahili in Iowa, you might have an issue). In terms of bilingual education, it’s worth noting that it is in fact designed to aid the process of learning English by smoothing it along and allowing for progress in other areas while English skills catch up. Of course, I guess bilingual education is a whole nother thread…
Kimstu, you are far too intelligent and reasonable to be posting in the Pit; leave it to unreasonable hotheads like Myrr21 and me. Here’s a cite on the costs of immigration to poor Americans.
I never said I was. You took my quote out of context. I was explaining the need for everyone, including the native-born, to study U.S. history. I was trying to explain to Myrr21 why I feel a strong connection to American history. It’s not just stories in a textbook to me, but family history. An ex-Indonesian who is now a citizen is just as good an American as anyone else, but I’ll wager dollars to doughnuts he didn’t have a great, great, granduncle get shot at Chancellorsville, nor did he have an ancestor present at Cornwallis’s surrender at Yorktown.
If you’re going to be a teacher, I hope your subject isn’t logic.
I lived most of the 90s in other countries, plus I speak fluent Korean, Spanish, and passable Mandarin, plus I can at least order a beer and a room in half a dozen other languages. How about you? I’ll put up my multicultural credentials against yours anyday.
2.I vote flamingly liberal. If you had bothered to read my first post instead of looking for a casus belli, you would have seen that I AGREED with you, schmuck. Immigrants need to do very little to be good Americans. All we’re arguing about here is the primacy of English.
I’m a former fully-certified ESL teacher (I’m in career transition, heading to law school) with many years of experience. Bilingual education as practiced in U.S, classrooms doesn’t work. Children with poor English skills need to be placed in an age-appropriate full-immersion ESL class where the teacher uses TPR techniques and visual cues to help the children associate the word with the object, instread of running the English through the filter of the native language. With full-immersion, you get students who are truly bilingual; with traditional bilingual ESL classes, children rarely attain full English fluency.
Now this shows that you lack character or any concept of loyalty. It is when your country is going wrong that it is incumbent upon its citizens to protest and change, not cut and run. Did Thoreau take a hike when the US started the Mexican War? No, he refused to pay his poll tax and went to jail. Did Martin Luther King book a flight out of town when Rosa Parks was arrested? No, he organized the Montgomery bus boycott.
And why don’t you go spit on a few graves at Arlington National Cemetery while you’re at it?
I worked and saved and gave my friend a car. He trashed it.
He worked and saved for hin next car. He values it and takes care of it.
I believe M 21 still wants to be given his. And he’ll spit on the next person who does too.
What the hell, this thread’s been so hijacked at this point anyway…
Three questions:
On what do you base that conclusion?
Do you expect the rest of us to share it? (I would broadly include in this such opinions as “Those who do not worship the Twenty True Gods will burn forever in hell” or “Those who reject the Twenty True Gods cannot be moral.”)
Do you expect the rest of us to formulate public policy based on this? (I.e., death without mercy to the enneadekatheist heretics; or laws that say people don’t have to take checks that have been signed with the left hand because the Big Book of the Twenty True Gods says “all who use their sinister hands are accursed and must die like dogs” [Wise and Pithy Sayings of the Prophets of the Twenty True Gods 42:42])
And your point is…what?
It is nice to see your posts slowly coming around to the level of coherence, but I don’t really see the relevance aspect growing.
Given my what? I also make a habit of not spitting; much less on people. 
Anywho…
goboy: err, I need to break this down a bit. First off, while relevant, bilingual education probably deserves its own thread (and not in the Pit). If you care to start the thread, I’ll be along (between working exhaustvive calculations that are making my head spin, and reading the 15 pages you linked)…
Moving on:
Which is why I will fight as long as I feel that it is worth it to me as a person. Which is why I would go to jail for certain causes that (thankfully) have never needed to come about. Yet, when all is said and done, sometimes one can be of more use to the country as free, outspoken person outside the borders. Moreover, I have family and friends to worry about. Up to a certain point, my protests benefit them (and every one else in the place). After some point, I feel that I can serve my loved ones best by getting myself, and them, the heck outta here. I do not forsee this happening in my lifetime–given the stability of the United States–but it is not something I will rule out for some gand delusions of valor. To me the Pledge represents a brand of loyalty beyond what I feel (especially to a rather unatractive flag). All that aside, however, I might consider saying it if “under god” were taken back out–as that is the greater objection to me.
Did you actually read the cite I linked? The point was that we have a massive Spanish speaking population, but most of them are learning English, so English is not in danger. OTOH, there are still millions who do not speak English living in the US–or do you dispute this?
Anyway, to back up some to the original point: I do not feel that there shoudl be any obligation for immigrants to learn English if they can live in the US without it–as is the case in many areas, particularly for Spanish speakers. It would be beneficial to them, but that is their choice. OTOH, I do agree that there are languages and locations that are simply incompatible with functioning in this country. All in all, though, I still cannot see how you or Nika or whomever can say that it is an obligation. I personally appreciate it (my French is pretty good, and while that extends a little to Italian and Spanish, it is a heck of a lot easier for me to converse in English), but can’t condemn those who do not.
(BTW: I intend to look through it further–and provide countercites–but FAIR gives me the same creepy feeling that FLAME does. Just a thought.)