We were taught omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence as early as Sunday School (we didn’t get omnibenevolence in our church - it was assumed to be more implicit).
While it’s possible your entire understanding of biblical matters comes from direct reading, it’s much more likely you have forgotten or ignored the matter when it came up in study over the years.
ETA: Oh, and if the implicit point wasn’t clear - no, your POV isn’t convincing to Christians with scientific training, either. Your POV is more common among the strain of conservative fundamentalists and evangelicals who, I would point out, don’t represent all or even a majority of Christians in scientific arguments (though they, as you show, shout louder than most).
If we cannot account for the order and complexity of the universe without the existence of God, then we also cannot account for the order and complexity of God without the existence of an even bigger, more orderly meta-God, and so on.
Evolution is the only way the entire field of biology makes any sort of sense. Without the unification that the theory of evolution provides, biology degenerates into a hodgepodge of trivia. Denying evolution would be like trying to make sense of chemistry while denying the existence of atoms – I’d be hesitant to even call the endeavor “chemistry”.
The sheer amount of evidence in favor of evolution is mind-blowing. We can even see it occur in the lab, as I myself have seen when I was doing biochemistry research as an undergraduate. I should mention that I wasn’t trying to elucidate some facet of evolution that we didn’t quite understand. The process was so well understood from the molecular level up through the level of the organism that laboratory evolution was simply one of many tools in our toolbox. Imagine a carpenter denying the existence of hammers. I’m struggling to come up with a metaphor that can really capture the ridiculousness of what you’re proposing from my point of view. It’d be as though you earnestly were suggesting that there is no Mandarin language. Everyone who appears to speak Mandarin is really just making meaningless utterances at each other for reasons we have yet to understand. Chinese people act in some sort of strange synchrony as though they understand one another all due to an inherent and ineffable quality unique to the Chinese.
Then your definition is simultaneously so broad as to be meaningless and completely fails to observe a very serious difference between my acceptance of science and my rejection of god. I do not blindly accept science. It earned my trust. Even though I have not completely proven that empiricism and observation is perfect, I accept the basic premises required in using them for two reasons:
To the closest approximation I can offer, it has served me incredibly well - I mean, for fuck’s sake, I’m sitting here typing words on a big magic box that transports them all the way across the world, and then maybe later I’m going to tell that box to help me slay an evil witch who rains lightning from the sky and her master Dominus, the High Templar.
If I reject these premises, I have nothing to stand on. I literally cannot act in reality. Rejection of empiricism basically amounts to solipsism, and I welcome anyone who rejects it to try leaving for work by the window on the second floor rather than the doorway.
Except that morality is, like justice and love (which you appealed to earlier) and abstraction of observations. How do we know that murder is bad? Because we see it and think “man, this is bad”, and it is essentially hardwired into our psyche to think that - indeed, not thinking that is the sign of a psychopath. First principles are indeed not based on observation. However, they don’t get any further than “I think, therefore I am” without breaking down into intuitive assumptions. So… How else do we know things? How could you possibly know about a mind separate from a brain if you can’t observe it? How could you possibly know about a soul for which there can be no evidence? What is your path to this knowledge?
Eh… No. Your understanding of evolution is the typical creationist understanding of evolution: totally lacking information on most subjects and completely wrong on most of what you think you do know. Where did you learn about evolution? Seriously, who taught you? Did your school fail you massively? Or did you just spend a lot of time on Answers in Genesis? Either way, I’m just going to ask you nicely. In this thread, you’ve had multiple people not just tell you you’re wrong, but provide extensive sourcing that you’re wrong. Because you are wrong. You’re wrong about the fossil record. You’re wrong about evolution being a dying breed. You’re wrong about what evidence for evolution exists. You’re wrong about the early evolutionary pathways of microorganisms. You’re wrong about basically you open your mouth about with regards to evolution. Please. Stop talking about evolution until you understand what it is and what evidence is available. Stop getting your information from shitty creationist websites; they know they’re wrong but perpetuate the information anyways, because apparently lying for Jesus is A-OK. I’m not saying you’re lying, just to be clear, but you seem very taken in by these arguments which are demonstrably wrong.
You’re arguing against one of the most widely-accepted scientific theories in the world. As previously stated, it’s taught at essentially every college in the world, accepted by basically every scientific association in the world, and forms the backbone for all of biology. Saying that “if they had proof there would be no controversy” is giving people waaaay too much credit. There are people who legitimately believe that the earth is flat. And creationism isn’t just a matter of scientific disagreement; for many people, when you point out how creationism is wrong, you’re attacking deeply held religious beliefs. There is proof, at least as far as any scientific theory can ever be proven. The evidence in favor is absolutely overwhelming. And that you don’t know or understand this
Because if we can map the “mind” clearly to the brain, then any need for a supernaturalistic “mind” flies right out the window. We don’t need to appeal to a “mind” outside of the brain.
I present: every human being on the planet.
Because it’s showing that in fact, the “mind” you’re talking about is nothing more than the movement of electrical charges within the brain. That everything we associate with a “mind” can be reduced to activity within the brain. If you don’t understand why this is evidence of mind emerging from matter, then no evidence will ever be good enough. Seriously, what kind of experiment do you expect?
But again, this is every human on the planet. We have the brain. It’s matter. We have electrical charges that move within the brain. Those charges and the internal structure of the brain. Humans clearly have minds. What we consider those “minds” lines up perfectly with what we observe in the brain. I don’t know what else anyone can do to show you this connection.
jstucker15, you’re brand new here at the Straight Dope Message Board so I’m going to cut you some slack.
In Great Debates we attempt to maintain certain standards for our posters and how they debate. Both posting as a quote and response to yourself and posting the exact same thing multiple times both violate those standards.
In the future, please attempt a higher level of debate and discussion. Great Debates welcomes those who wish to witness for their faith - it’s in the mission statement for the forum - but we do expect them to be able to respond to questions coherently and respectfully.
Had you been here longer your posting pattern would earn you an official warning. Enough warnings and your posting privileges could be removed. And we don’t want that.
I am 100% sure there is a peer reviewed journal article somewhere that ostensibly proves God created the universe. There are peer reviewed demonology journals for fuck’s sake.
Peer review is great and all, but it’s not really sufficient for proving… acceptable sciencosity. (Words are hard)
If you are seriously trying to learn about this subject and not just spouting mindless assertions from ignorant sources, it would be the best investment of your life to read Only a Theory, by Kenneth R. Miller (who is a theist, BTW). Since Amazon has copies for as little as 75 cents plus shipping, poverty cannot be an excuse for ignoring it.
How ironic. You were referring to the “belief” in evolution, but I think it applies much better to your beliefs in god(s).
It’s like describing a dog by saying it lives in a doghouse. All we have to do is spend no time looking nowhere, and we’ll find his god. Every time a religionist uses the term “outside space and time” to stop inquiries as to the whereabouts of their particular deity, they should be called on it.
This really is an American thing.
How is it possible there is so much ignorance in your country?
Doesn’t your government check schools curriculums?
Do you not have a basic set of knowledge and skills that have to be taught or can schools just teach whatever they like?
Does ‘land of the free’ mean you are free to teach your children any old bullshit?
Is Der trish right? Does about half your country still believe in creation?
If your country is producing so many people who really have so little basic knowledge, something is wrong with your educational system.
Seriously wrong.
Well, it’s worth noting that in many places, local education boards have worked very hard to try to devalue education and push creationism, lawsuits or not.
Nothing wrong with the public education system, but when they go to church on Sunday, they learn that God tells them otherwise. Powerful stuff, that God shit.
And the parochial system has a problem by definition. Some may not be able to reconcile facts with TRUTH (that’s spelled with a capital cross).
Which has failed every time it’s tried. I don’t know what that proves, either.