As for Scientology: We must make the distinction between the faith (the Tech, created by Hubbard as part of Dianetics and related writings) and the current largest group associated with that faith (the Church of Scientology, or CoS, founded by Hubbard as the main part of the scam). It is as essential as distinguishing between the Christian faith and the Westboro Baptist Church.*
*(The WBC damned well calls itself Christian. And mainstream Scientologists (called Free-Zoners) want to distance themselves from the CoS, too.)
The CoS is beyond redemption. It is on a level with the Mafia, only the Mafia prefers to kill people outright instead of brainwashing them and bleeding them dry slowly. “Operation Snow White” and Lisa McPherson are the only things you need to know about the practices of the CoS.
The Tech, the religion of Scientology as practiced by people both inside and outside the CoS, is no stranger than any other religion. If it becomes more mainstream, it will have to moderate its tone against psychiatry and other medicine if only because religions that disallow medical care have never been mainstream. (Is this wrong? I can think of small offshoots, such as Christian Science, but no major religions.) But that is entirely possible, and religions have successfully made larger changes. (Such as, for example, the destruction of the Temple removing sacrifice from the Jewish faith.)
See the South Park episod trapped in the closet. It skewered Scientology and Tom Cruise. They stated that scientology is wrapped up in UFO ology. If true it is way out side main stream. I tried downloading the episide but it quit playing.
Yeah, but there’s evidence that the early Mormon church did very similar things. If you consider Mormonism a mainstream religion now, there’s concrete evidence that churches that do things like that can still become mainstream religions in a few generations. And even if you don’t consider Mormonism mainstream, it’s at least vastly more mainstream now than it used to be, and it has a pretty positive image in the media and whatnot.
They all believe in myth and invisible dieties. They create a system where you must get advice on how to ive from an expert who gives his life to learning the books and you must oaccept his teachings. Rabbi, priest, reverend whatever they have the answers and a pipeline to the god. Scientology ,for money, will teach you in steps .Each step costs money and it gets progressively more expensive.
gonzomax: Scientology the religion doesn’t charge you anything any more than any other structure of beliefs does. The CoS does that, and it will also try to destroy you utterly if it feels even remotely threatened by you.
There is really no comparison between the CoS and any religious organization.
It’s got Hollywood, or at least it has the appearance of being the religion of Hollywood. Like said before, if it gains enough support, it will be “mainstream”. It could get more mainstream by being covered more and more. They’ve got the pockets, they can finance lots of stories on all the “good things that Scientology does!”
It’s fairly well-known stuff. Blood atonement, Danites, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the 1838 Missouri War … and despite Monty’s attempts to make it seem like I’m bringing it up for no reason, it’s directly relevant to this thread, because the evidence shows that Mormonism has a history that’s at least as … controversial … as Scientology, but it’s a fairly mainstream religion today. So I see no reason why Scientology could never become a mainstream religion.
You’re absolutely right. I just tend to assume that everybody is familiar with that stuff, but of course that’s not the case.
I’ll summarize the evidence in a new thread. I just don’t know where I should put it. I think it should go here, but given that it’s a topic people get mad about, the Pit might be better.
Anyone who has done any serious study of religion and history wouldn’t equate Mormonism with Scientology, for reasons I simply don’t have time or space to go into here. I will say that absolutely nothing that happened in the history of the Mormon church is any worse than things that were done during the growth years of Christianity or Islam, and the wholesale slaughter committed on behalf of Judaism is displayed in graphic detail in the Bible.
There isn’t a religious movement in U.S. history – including my own beloved Episcopal Church – that hasn’t had its “Gee, maybe we better rethink this thing” moments. You can argue until you’re blue in the face whether there is any substance to Mormonism, and you won’t change anyone’s mind one way or another. But comparing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints with the Church of Scientology is simply a gross display of ignorance.
Okay, what part of “I simply don’t have time or space” did you not understand? I don’t mean a few minutes, I mean I don’t have the hours it would take. But I would urge you to actually read the Book of Mormon. I also recommend “One Nation Under Gods” by Richard Abanes. And any “official” Mormon history you can get your hands on. Why? Because nothing provides enlightenment about a religion quite like its own texts, though usually in ways the authors didn’t intend.
Very briefly: Mormonism actually has a scripture and attendant texts; Mormonism proposes a faith in a omnipotent creator; Mormonism proposes a moral lifestyle, defines sin and suggests methods of absolution; Mormonism proposes the possibility of salvation and an afterlife. As nearly as I can tell, Scientology does none of this; “Battlefield Earth” and Ron Hubbard’s attempts at self-help books simply don’t qualify as scripture by any stretch of the imagination.
Also, let me expand just a bit on something I said in an earlier post: I’m an atheist, and no apologist for the Latter-Day Saints. But I have a tremendous respect for the way they have taken a largely misunderstood theology and re-tooled it into something that focuses on family values the way Jim Dobson’s wackos in Colorado Springs never could. Mormonism doesn’t just have the outter trappings of a bona fide religion, it has a shared spiritual core that Scientology will never have.
Seems to me that you’ve taken your opinions about what constitutes “scripture” and “theology” and turned it into an unjustified basis for calling me grossly ignorant. There are certainly Scientology analogs of most of the characteristics of Mormonism that you list, but you’ve dismissed them out of hand.
In any case, let me clarify something: I’m not saying that the belief systems of Mormonism and Scientology are similar, I’m saying that the organizations have similarities in their actions. And that, to me, is vastly more important than the doctrine itself.
Incidentally, I’ve read the books you mention many, many times, but I do appreciate the insinuation.
I thought I’d mentioned this earlier in the thread, but clearly I didn’t, so I’d better do so now: the reason I’ve read the Book of Mormon and books on Mormon history many times is that I am a Mormon, and thus the topic is of great interest to me. Of course, I’m not a typical Mormon, but I’m still a Mormon.