Can somebody explain the economics of small/indie bands?

Factual Questions
1

I was really just curious what the money situation is like for moderately successful venues and bands that house small time or independent acts. Not local bands, but bands that tour and are proffessional musicians.

Let me take a look at my record collection for some examples:
Pedro the Lion
Spoon
Blackalicious
Future Bible Heroes
Interpol
Jurrassic 5
Ladytron

This struck me a few months ago when I went to see Spoon at Tulagi, a local Boulder, CO venue. I paid $8 to get in, and the venue could hold maybe 150-200 people. So that’s $1600 max. You have to pay the 4/5 people running the venue, what 50-100 per day on a part time/full time basis. There’s $300. Costs to maintain the venue, $200/day? And than you have to pay the band. They had two cover bands. A local act of college students (probably free) and then a North Carolina (?) band, The Oranges Band. 3 band members. And finally the main act, Spoon. 4 band members from Texas touring cross country with a bus and two/three vans to hold all the instruments. That’s, what about $100-$150 per musician per day? And you cannot book straight performances 24/7/365, can you?

So how does all this work out? How much money is actually in it for the band? How “big” do you have to be to make good money, $50-70,000 a year if you play in a band?

Thanks, Elliot

2

I made my living for a while playing in bars. Generally the band takes the cover charge and the bar takes the drink money. If the club-venue doesn’t serve drinks then the band doesn’t make much money because the take at the door is split.

When we toured down in Florida I was lucky if I had 10 bucks a day to spend on food. At the same time the bars would usually give the band a free tab. Free BEER! Sleeping in the truck due to lack of funds to rent a room was a frequent occurance.

It also depends on the bands ability to bring in people. The first time we toured in Florida no one knew us and so we didn’t make much money. The second time around we had a decent following so we made more money.

You also need to throw in the sales of T-Shirts and CDs at the shows. The first tour we made most of our money from tape sales (this was before CDs exsisted).

To make 50 -70,000 a year you need to be a pretty big minor act like Steve Morse. Hardcore fans are the big thing. If you get a hardcore following you can do alright though it is a very hard way to live.

Slee

3

Merch merch merch. They can sell a t-shirt or CD for $10 or $12 and make $7. And that’s cheap enough that most people will actually buy one or two.

4

Okay, thanks.

So what’s the break-down with the merchandise and cd-sale income and touring income?

How much money will a band get off of each CD sale?

Where can I find out how many CD’s a particular band actually sells?

Again, thankyou for your experience.

5

Exactly. CD’s, tapes and T-shirts are what puts gas in the van and beer in the bassist.

6

It also helps if the band keeps the rights to everything connected with them, T shirts, images, music, instead of signing them away like most major label bands do. Using the band Electric Frankenstein as an example, they licence, say, a 7 " or album to a label for whatever time period. When that deal is up, THEY decide who gets to release the next pressing of that record on their terms. That way, if the label goes belly up, or they don’t promote it to the bands liking, they can shop around for a better deal. It takes a lot more effort on thre bands part, but its worth it in the end. Frank Zappa pretty much pioneered the concept of self-ownership after getting bent over for years by major labels.

Jon

7

Well, I saw Spoon recently here in Houston, and I see how they make money. About 300 people attended, each paying $6, with only two opening bands. Furthermore, Spoon sold a decent amount of merchandise. Between the four of us that went, three shirts and a cd were purchased.

8

Okay, cool. Thank you for the information, I guess I just never figured that merchandise was more than a side thing, although I did know a little about not actually signing over the licenses to record companies, only a limited run of CD’s.

Daoloth, and they rocked, din’t they?

Completely Random Hi-Jack of my own thread: So why the hell would anyone spend $75 on concert tickets?

I was given two $75 dollar tickets to Moby’s Area 2 this summer when they came to Denver. It was moved out of a local basket ball arena (Pepsi Center) to basically a giant tent on a parking lot (City Lights “Pavillion”) to save money. The people who got the cheapest level of tickets we’rnt even allowed in the seating area, and basically had to look on the stage standing up from about a 1000 feet away. Even though our tickets were the same level, we just got crappy seats becasue of the change-over in venue tickets, Clear Channel’s sub-rent-a-cops were constantly checking tickets and moving us away from the area around the pit, even though nobody was in these seats for the smaller acts like Busta-Rhymes. David Bowe was good, but they totally screwed up the sound and had crappy speakers- the concert sounded 100x better away from the stage and in “the village”. After Moby played, there was no-way you could meet anybody from any of the groups, and people were lined up 100 long for the privilege of buying a $25 dollar t-shirt to advertise the fact that they dropped $75 to see Moby 300 ft from the stage.

Damn good thing I didn’t pay for those tickets.

At Spoon, I was 20 ft from the stage. The band kicked ass- was so energetic, and everybody around me loved the concert. They sounded as good as their studio-cd’s, and they played for an hour and a half. After waiting around 10-15 minutes after the show, I got to hang out with the band for two minutes out back of the theatre and got a poster promoing the show signed by all four band members for a girl who couldn’t go up to Boulder from Denver on a Tuesday night, shook hands with and talked to each band member. $8+gas.

Boggles the mind.

9

Most members of indie bands I know have day jobs or live hand to mouth if they aren’t independently wealthy through some other means like family or lottery tickets.

They simply don’t make a lot of money. Few in my experience (which isn’t that broad but is quite indie) break even.

10

threemae, that’s exactly the point of view I’ve come to. I won’t pay more than 30 or 40 bucks for a concert ticket, and I’ll only pay that occasionally, for bands I really, really like. Club shows’ll spoil you for those giant venues (but woe to you when your favorite indie band hits it big).

11

This is a minor high jack, I know. But I’ve been curious for quite a while, so I will take the plunge. What is an “indie” band? For that matter, what is an “indie” movie? Remember, I’m an old guy and just not at all current.

12

Indie means independant. As in (mostly) self-financed, created, marketed and distributed. So, an indie label would be a small independant record label that does all the work itself, usually with just a small distribution.

(Also note that indie rock can also be used to mean independantly created (or independantly created sounding) punk, ska, emo, or hardcore… I’ve never heard of “indie country & western”)

13

From what little I know of the business, it’s just a whole bunch of little things. You make a little from merchandise. You make a little more from the gate. You make a little from your modest 5,000 selling CD. You get the occasional larger gig which gets you pocket money for the month. That sort of thing.

One old acqaintance of mine picked up extra money from session work in Montreal, and then he got into producing part-time. Now he’s quite successful, with his own modest producing studio and a regional band he plays in.

My brother in law plays in a band, and his situation is probably one of the most common. He has a full time job, and has a small band that plays bars and lounges. They are the only act, there’s no cover, and the bar pays them a flat fee to play. There’s only three of them, and they play two or three nights a week. I think they wind up typically getting $150 each or something for a gig. Now they’re working on a CD, and they might make another $100/wk or something from that once it’s cut. As more people hear about them and like them, their playing nights will get busier. This will allow them to shop around for larger venues, where they can make a little more. Slowly, over time, you build a following. Hopefully.

Even being in a band with a hit song doesn’t make you much money. I remember an article about this by Courtney Love. She said that a million selling album would probably net the band members something like $35K each. The writers are the ones who make the real money. So bands have to tour to make money. That holds true even for the largest - Pete Townsend once said that he would have never toured with The Who again, but he kept doing it because Roger Daltry and John Entwistle needed the money from touring, because they had few songwriting credits.

14

As far as the Spoon/Oranges Band shows, the one you attended may have been a bit smaller. I caught the tour in Portland in mid-October, and it drew a good 300-400 people at $10 apiece. I didn’t see any merch, but the Blue Hawaiians might have has soemthing to do with that. Anyway, some of their shows are a bit more of a draw. It was at a bar, so I’m guessing most of the ticket sale $$ went to the bands.

As an aside, yes, they rocked. I brought a friend of mine who listens to nothing but top 40, and he was still talking about it a month later. :smiley: After paying $50 to see Neil Young at the Rose Garden, I’ve given up on high-dollar tix. I got to see a great show for FREE in Tucson last month (Trapt and OK Go). The act would have to be something extraordinary for me to pay over $30. That doesn’t even include the positive corellation between money paid and distance from the stage. I was about 5’ away from OK Go, and got to meet them after the show. No such luck with Neil Young.

15

I think that’s just a semantics niggle. The equivalent would be referred to as alt country.

16

As it should be!

17

This is a hard question to answer, but mainly you have to find some good local sources. Check for some “independent radio” in the area, although this can be difficult to find in a Clear Channel/Infinity etc. dominated landscape. Sometimes, you might have a radio station which does a “locals only” or “new music” hours. Here in Denver, we have the excelent Radio 1190, a full-time indie radio station from the University of Colorado Boulder. Also, on Channel 93.3, there is a one hour local music program. Or, give the DJ’s a call and ask for their advice. Even if they’re tools of evil corporations, they’re probably still pretty intense music listeners. Even in big markets, DJ’s are still suprisingly accessable, especially at 2 A.M. in the morning. Just kidding, Clear Channel Pre-Records at 2 A.M. to save cash. Which reminds me, what’s the difference between McDonnalds and Clear Channel? The voice at McDonnald’s is local and live. Ha!

If you have no luck here, what you need now is a good CD store. WhereHouse Music isn’t it. Again, back to Denver, we have Twist and Shout, as well as a few other pretty good CD stores. The staff at most of these stores, uh, doesn’t get out much and they always have some good suggestions. Quality CD stores will allow you to sample all of the merchandise for free, so just pop-open a few CD’s and start listening.

Another option which you should probably have is local newspapers. If you live in a big city near the westcoast, you probably have a New Times publication. Here in Denver, we have Westword, but go to www.newtimes.com to see if you have one there. Westword has pretty good music reviews. Again, just grab a CD and start listening. Failing that, look for a local newspaper, they will probably have some “indie” music reviews.

Your final option would be the internet. There are a number of sites that have music reviews or have bands trying to promo themselves.

Most importantly, don’t listen to “indie” music just to listen to it. Listen to it because you like it. Don’t get caught up in the whole pretentious, I’m cooler than you because nobody except for people with dorky glasses, bad haircuts, and wierd goatees could possibly appreciate my music. Listen to good music.

But after you listen to enough “indie” music you’ll be supprised to learn that the Top 40 music is hardly the best music out there.

And if you want my suggestions, go to the list in the OP.

Pedro the Lion-It’s Hard to Find a Friens
Spoon-Kill the Moonlight
Blackalicious- Blazing Arrow
Future Bible Heroes- Eternal Youth
Interpol- Turn on the Bright Lights
Jurrassic 5- Quality Control
Ladytron- Light and Sound

Just start listening, and see what you like. None of these are super-indie, just one’s you’ll never hear on the radio. Some of these CD’s take a bit more listening to appreciate, or I may be worng and they could simply suck. You decide. Have fun. Feel free to ask more questions, and I’m sure other Doper’s would be happy to share [ad nauseum] their own musical tastes.