Can the benefits I get from state services be quantified in monetary terms?

I use roads, the postal service, public education, police protection, fire protection, military protection, the legal infrastructure, waste disposal services which may for all I know ultimately be paid for by the city (not sure), and various other services besides.

Has anyone tried to quantify just how much is spent per person by governments for services like this?

There’s a personal reason for this question. My wife and I were informed by her mother the other day that we are at least slightly deficient human beings for having used WIC and Medicaid for our children for a couple of years. We should have paid our own way, she says. She paid her own way, and it is people getting such services through the government which is part of what’s leading to the destruction of society etc etc. That and the brown people coming across the southern border.

Well, of course there will be no convincing her. But in the ensuing discussion, I made the claim that she probably didn’t pay her own way, and that probably the amount her (non-well-to-do) family paid in taxes did not make up for the amount of services her family recieved from various governments. That though she thinks we shouldn’t have “demanded that the rich pay for us” probably she and everyone she knows is actually having their way through life paid for by the rich and by corporations. Which doesn’t make her wrong, but should give her pause.

Well, I made that claim, but am not actually sure it’s true.

Is there any data that can be used to fairly cleanly back such claims up or refute them? (Of course it depends on income levels and so forth. A family of four making $20,000 definitely doesn’t “pay its own way.” Perhaps a billionaire does. I don’t know.)

When you ask about quantifying the value, do you mean the personal value of the product or service to you, or just the raw numbers? In other words, if you don’t have a car, then roads would be less valuable to you than the straight division (although certainly the’d be of some value, including the trucks that use them to deliver food to your grocery stores, mail/fedex trucks for delivering stuff to your house, etc).

If it’s just the raw numbers, you could probably just divide the federal budget by the number of people in America (308m?) or the number of American taxpayers (131m by one estimate I saw). Since income taxes only made up 43% of Federal receipts in 2009, you could conceivably just use that portion of the federal budget for your calcs. Unless you want to try to determine the percentage of individual contribution to the 7% of federal receipts that come in through Corporate taxes…

in short, probably depends on your assumptions?

This is an excellent question, one that cuts right to the heart of public finance. The answer to this relates to efficient tax policy, Keynesian fiscal stimulus spending, long-term economic growth, and just about everything else regarding the relationship between the government and the broader economy.

And so, of course, the answer is “No”.

There is just no way to stick a price tag on the value of government services and give that number an objective, generally accepted meaning. Not yet, anyway. Maybe never. There are too many unknowns.

In private markets, “value” is in large part determined by individual willingness to pay. This makes a certain sort of sense. Most of us are best suited to know what we personally want and need. Whether a college kid spends a few bucks on condoms or tampons is going to be determined by the situation she’s personally in. She knows best what she’s going to be doing this weekend. Value is discovered, so to speak, by the countless individual choices that we make, deciding on one thing instead of another.

Government spending, in contrast, is determined by political processes. Obviously, there is genuine value to many government projects: infrastructure, public security, adjudication, education, etc. Even a welfare safety net can theoretically be justified by a simple cost-benefit analysis, unrelated to deeper moral concerns, if you believe that a safety net contributes to overall societal stability. The problem is that there’s no way to create reliable comparative measurements. These are “public goods”, or else goods with positive externalities like education, where we feel that private markets would under-provide these services based on the overall benefit of an educated populace.

With respect to positive externalities, there’s no reliable way to run an experiment to determine exactly how strong the benefit is. We know education is valuable, but we don’t know exactly how valuable. It’s one thing to compare robust macro variables–it’s something else entirely to zero in on one publically-provided service and swim through all the statistical noise to get a reliable measure of the overall macro effect from that service. If a single advanced country one day decided to say “Fuck educating the poor! Those brats can learn on the streets!” we could have the start of a potentially relevant data series. But that ain’t gonna happen. Smart countries aren’t going to deprive themselves of the benefits of education, even if we’re all unsure of exact numbers.

With respect to public goods, you have a related problem. There’s no way for the police to protect individual houses based on payment. Either the neighborhood as a whole is safe, or it isn’t. There’s no way for the military to protect some cities from invasion instead of others. Either the whole country is safe, or it isn’t. And so there’s no objective way to tell how much you’d be personally willing to give up to pay for these things. That’s the metric we need to get a good quantifiable comparison. But that info isn’t there. We can see a lot of people make their choice to move to the suburbs and thus avoid paying for inner-city services, but what would they do if white flight were not available? If wealthier people had to stay in the same neighborhoods, would they be willing to cough up the extra dollars for safer streets? If so, exactly how much more would they pay? We can’t know. In the political process, the willingness to pay is obscured.

We can’t read people’s minds, and then deport those who don’t care to pay for security to Somalia. This is the fundamental disconnect between market prices and government prices.

And this is where ideology steps up to the plate in all the predictable ways.

Is there any way around the tiresome ideological disputes? Well… maybe. It could come down to long-run economic growth, which is a fuzzy topic because advanced industrial economies have only been around a relatively short time, and we don’t actually know what other technological wonders await us in the future. But if we can demonstrate a stronger relationship between government size and long-run growth–also keeping firmly in mind who benefits most from that economic growth–then I think it could go a long way to make a compelling argument one way or another, by giving people more information about their political decisions, and thus whether our present-day government spending level is justified based on what we can reasonably expect to happen over time. That could potentially create a clear decision between two basic alternatives, with relatively objective numbers about the genuine costs and benefits of government spending.

Or that could be nonsensical wishful thinking on my part. There might never be a reliable way to quantify the real value of government services in monetary terms.

Of course it’s possible to quantify it. The IRS does it every year. The question isn’t whether it can be quantified; it’s whether it’s quantified well.

Have your mother-in-law show you her Social Security Earnings Statement, and then calculate how much she has paid in, vs. how much she has collected, or is likely to collect if she lives to the average age. Plus the amount Medicare has paid for her medical care. Then ask her to repeat that statement about having “paid her own way”.

That will probably shut her up.
In fact, it may shut down all communications with her for quite some time. So consider that, and maybe be more tactful than I suggested.

A billionaire might have paid his way for using the same services you do, but then you have to factor in where that billion dollars came from.
I think most people saying they ‘paid their own way’, probably mean they paid their fair share, and maybe more. Still, it wouldn’t hurt to find out what a mile of roadway costs.

Not that the unwinnable argument with your mother-in-law matters, but, even if you were to happen to believe (as your mother-in-law apparently does) that it is unwise policy for the country to offer such programs as WIC and Medicaid, it would nonetheless be stupid to reject reaping those programs’ benefits when offered to you, given that you don’t have the alternative option of shutting those programs down anyway.

Brown people are pretty bad, though.

I live outside of Providence, so I can confirm this.

I’d say that the answer to the question is “everything she has.” Because without the government everything she has would be worthless or stolen, and she’d likely be dead or wishing she was. It’s the government that prints money, keeps order, maintains much of the infrastructure, restricts fraud, and in general provides a major and absolutely vital portion of what keeps society - including the economy - up and running at all.

Consider something simple like defense.

If you are poor, you’d probably still be poor after someone invaded and took over the country.

If you are wealthy, there’s a good chance you’d lose out big after someone invaded and took over the country.

The value of defense is related to the risk to your net worth. What proportion of all federal taxes goes to defense? Who benefits most from that?

About 19%. Cite.

Most of the federal budget goes to Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, interest on the national debt, and defense. So unless your mother in law collects Social Security or is on welfare or over 65, she is highly unlikely to be getting as much in benefits as she pays in taxes.

THe idea that the rich benefit more from defense is sort of besides the point, because the per capita cost of defense doesn’t change very much with income levels. Just the opposite, in fact - rich people are more likely to partially pay for their own protection, with alarm systems and private security for their businesses and so forth.

But pretty much by definition taxpayers, on average, have to pay in more than they receive in benefits, to cover the cost of those who don’t pay much in taxes.

This all ignores the effects of deficit spending, where the electorate receives essentially all the benefits of spending, and future taxpayers pay all the costs and receive nothing in return.

Regards,
Shodan

Depends on the wealth and tax distribution. If the wealthy people are carrying the majority of the load, then the average person isn’t. Pretty much by definition.

And I don’t gather the average person is wealthy anymore.

You could argue the point for police protection, maybe, but how many rich folks have private security systems that will protect them from getting shelled by artillery, or driving over an IED?

I’m lumping police and military protection together because both are paid for out of tax dollars. And it doesn’t cost significantly more for the military to protect the rich from shelling than the poor.

Regards,
Shodan

It doesn’t cost the military significantly more, but the rich do benefit more from it.

I’m going to say, “no,” going by theory that where there is no pricing mechanism determining a dollar value, there is no dollar value. An orgasm, in itself, normally has no dollar value. A sneeze has no dollar value, ergo not sneezing also has none.

And yet, certain :cough cough: professions might see some business value in an orgasm, or rather the time it takes to get one. So then those are perhaps roughly dollar-valuable, while one with your spouse is not. And then people spend money on drugs to stop sneezing.

As for gov’t services: Since we don’t buy, say, police protection on the open market, it has no market price. But it does have a cost. We can say, it costs this much in tax to provide these things, so they are worth that much. But that’s a tautology, implying that we always get what we pay for from gov’t. :dubious:

We could further say this: (warning: these are not official economics terms, they’re just off-the-cuff variables chosen for speed of typing)

Let one’s share of tax liability be T & the mean tax liability be X.
Let one’s share of benefit from the gov’t existing be U & the mean benefit be Y. (For this exercise I assume that our hypothetical gov’t acts as a net good for society.)

If {T/X < U/Y}, one is actually getting more per dollar spent than the mean, & given a sufficiently beneficent government, probably more than the benefits would cost on the open market. If {T/X > U/Y}, one is perhaps coming out behind. I say “perhaps,” because some services, like medicine, are so much better & more efficient when provided as a general service rather than by fee-for-service that the actual cutoff may be higher.

Of course, given the complex nature of macroeconomics, I have to point out that if {T/X > U/Y} because a higher pretax income gives one {T > X}, there may be some mitigating factors. The monies taxed from one may (directly or indirectly) raise the disposable income of one’s customers, & (although I haven’t modeled this & can’t say for certain) one may come out less behind post-redistribution than his neighbors come out ahead.

And there are non-monetary rewards to a redistributive state, like relative social contentment (at least for the first two generations; remember Machiavelli’s warning about trying to bribe a nation with its own money forever) leading to less unrest. Strife is good for the munitions business, so long as it’s away from the copper mines & bullet mills. Not so good otherwise.

But in any case, the relationship of T:X & of T/X:U/Y is pretty intuitive, so we tend to see persons of below average tax liability due to lower incomes favoring not only redistribution but government spending on education & security; those below average tax liability due to incomes in less highly taxed forms (such as capital gains) favoring government spending on education & security, but not socialist redistribution; while those of above average tax liability (such as those who own more in real & personal property & less in investment vehicles) often are unhappy with gov’t spending.

Then again, persons are notorious for misjudging their place in the larger economy, so actual present economic position is less important to these attitudes than perceived position–not to mention the perceived position of those who taught them their political biases (teachers, parents, even younger selves).

I meant break-even point, of course.

The right will insist that we get less & the left will insist that we get more, but this is of course colored by the standpoint of the base:

{T>X}, {U<Y}, &/or {T/X>U/Y} -natural economic conservative base
{T<X}, {U>Y}, &/or {T/X<U/Y} -natural economic progressive base

Voters tend to vote based on what they experience (or think they do) & confuse that with the general economy.

Also this. There is a level of wealth such that any person having attained it has benefited from the labor of others–in a sort of private sector “tax” on others’ labor. So he was in fact supported by others to get that wealth.

Further, anyone who works as an employee is better or worse paid based on a labor market beyond his personal control. Joining a union & engaging in collective action can help, but you’ll do better the more of that is going on–even in other industries.

So, no, one’s income really is not a mere function of one’s personal effort.

In macroeconomics, really, no man with any money is an island. Or at least, not throughout his career.

Of course, that’s counting “taxpayers” not “citizens.” Citizens on average are doing better than taxpayers on average.

I am with you on this, leaving aside the questionable use of “nothing.” Those future taxpayers presumably are still paying for their own needs as well, & they may have some leftover benefit from education & infrastructure spending in their youth–but I take your meaning & your point holds.

True. So do non-citizens like illegal aliens, and even foreigners, who benefit from our military protection as well as the spending that occurs with our personnel stationed there.

Also stuff like foreign aid, but that is a vanishingly small proportion of our spending.

This, I don’t know about. I think what the OP is talking about is receiving benefits you haven’t paid for. Certainly any employer benefits from the labor of others, but he pays for that labor or he doesn’t get it.

If you mean that employees value their wages more than the time spent at their jobs, sure, but that is true of every uncoerced economic exchange or it wouldn’t happen. The only reason I am willing to sell my widgit, or my time, is that I want the money I can get in exchange for either more than the widgit or the time itself.

Regards,
Shodan