Can the swastika be redeemed?

[Lemur866]

If you’re a no-shit hindu or buddhist go ahead and wear a swastika. Expect to occasionally encounter misunderstandings, depending.

If you’re a white guy whining about how hindus and buddhists get to wear swastikas, so why can’t you, then perhaps there’s some ulterior motive at work. Why do you feel this longing to wear a swastika? Why must the swastika be “reclaimed”, why now, and why you? Yeah, 500 years from now the swastika won’t be especially remembered for the Holocaust. Except it’s not 2506, it’s 2006.

[levdrakon]

@Lemur866

Why must the swastika be “reclaimed”, why now, and why you? Yeah, 500 years from now the swastika won’t be especially remembered for the Holocaust. Except it’s not 2506, it’s 2006.

Gotta start reclaiming & desensitizing it sometime. Don’t put off 'til tomorrow, what you can start today.

[Pazu]

@Lemur866

If you’re a white guy whining about how hindus and buddhists get to wear swastikas, so why can’t you, then perhaps there’s some ulterior motive at work.

What if you’re a white Buddhist?

[duffer]

@Captain Amazing

But nobody’s talking about the swastika being used in those places where it has a good reputation…We’re all talking about using it in Israel, Europe, and the US, where people deservedly associate it with evil.

Well, in the US it’s commonly associated with Nazis (by the non-natives), though for the majority I don’t think it’s a symbol that strikes fear into the hearts of men. Except for Jewish immigrants fleeing the terror of Hitler, most people, that I know at least, see it as a symbol of an enemy we soundly defeated. Of course, you’re going to get the groups that take it too far one way or the other, but mostly it seems to have become a rather benign symbol of a horrid experiment in governance and control.

I’ve mentioned in other threads my collection of memorabilia my grandfather brought back from Germany. And I try to collect anything I can from that war. (The European theatre, anyway.) I love history, and WWII absolutely fascinates me in the scope and importance of just about every aspect from that era in modern life. (The creation of modern day Israel, included.) Of course, I’m not a neo-nazi, but I still can’t bring myself to take the flags that are in dire need of cleaning to anyone lest they think I’ve simply forgotten to shave my head that day.

The symbol didn’t kill anyone. It was the men that bastardized the symbol to represent what they were doing. It’s not the banner being waved, it’s the men that are using the banner we have to fear. Ban the swastika from ever being used again. It won’t prevent future nazi-like groups from any actions. They’ll just purloin a new symbol to march under.

Frankly, it doesn’t really matter to me one way or the other if it’s ever accepted in Europe, the US or Israel. The symbol itself just doesn’t carry a lot of weight with me. Catholics weren’t the pariahs the Jews were, of course. But we weren’t exactly on Hitler’s dance card. Not a fair comparison, maybe, but the symbol itself wasn’t the cause of evil. It was the men perpetrating it.

Just a few thoughts of little importance. Take it for what you will.

[Lemur866]

@levdrakon

Gotta start reclaiming & desensitizing it sometime. Don’t put off 'til tomorrow, what you can start today.

We do? Says who? WHY do we gotta start now? How about you wait until all the survivors of the Holocaust are dead, and all children of survivors of the Holocaust are dead, and just for good measure, grandchildren too. That’s only, what, 100 years from now or so?

And if you’re a white Buddhist who wants to wear a big fat swastika while walking around, well, go ahead. If you don’t mind 99% of the people who see you thinking you’re a neonazi, go ahead. I could put a big poster of Osama bin Ladin in my front yard with a caption “I agree with Osama bin Ladin”. If people would only stop and interact with me, they’d learn that I agree with Osama bin Ladin that Macs are superior to PCs, or some such, not his other ideas, like that America must be destroyed and Jews exterminated. It’s just a picture of a human being, why would anyone get upset!

Thing is, how can you contend that the swastika is such an important symbol–for you–of good, that you can’t be happy unless you get to display a big old fucking swastika. Yet you can’t understand how someone else could find a few meaningless lines so important–it’s just a symbol, man! Yeah, it’s just a symbol. So put your fucking symbol away for another hundred years so you don’t look like a jerk.

[duffer]

@Lemur866

I could put a big poster of Osama bin Ladin in my front yard with a caption “I agree with Osama bin Ladin”. If people would only stop and interact with me, they’d learn that I agree with Osama bin Ladin that Macs are superior to PCs.

At least you’re being reasonable.

[duffer]

BTW, with the recent popularity of “equal time”, why not do this?

For the same amount of time spent teaching children how the swastika is associated with Hitler, we spend an equal amount of time teaching them the true history of the symbol and what it orginally and still does symbolize? It wasn’t until I was in my early 20’s that I realized it was actually an ancient symbol that existed long before the Nazis. Take the emotion out of this debate, and it’s apparent that maybe there is a bias in education. A centuries-old symbol, bastardized by a tyrant, and it’s now taught that it only has one meaning. Talk about fighting ignorance.

The KKK uses burning crosses in attempts of intimidation. Does the cross now symbolize lynchings? Why are there so many crosses in predominately black churches? And Catholic churches?

[jjimm]

I suggest this guy in India may have taken the ‘reclamation’ a little too far…

[Alessan]

@duffer

The KKK uses burning crosses in attempts of intimidation. Does the cross now symbolize lynchings? Why are there so many crosses in predominately black churches? And Catholic churches?

The burning cross is an ancient Highland Scots symbol.

Here’s an idea: next St. Andrews’s day (or whatever), a bunch of prominent Scots and Scottish-Americans should hold a parade in Manhattan. They’ll march up 5th Avenue - the city’s most popular parade route - until they reach, say, 125th St., where they’ll stop and light a whole bunch of crosses on fire to symbolize a gathering of the clans. I’m sure the crowd will LOVE it.

[jimbeam]

I think this “debate” is not that great. It may have slipped into the opinion forum by now.
IMHO the swastika IS being reclaimed and in fact NEVER was lost in some cultures. Any attempt to FORCE acceptance on an unwilling society will be met with resistance. Radicals who still use the swastika as a symbol of hate are NOT helping to “reclaim” it’s spiritual intent.

[Jackknifed_Juggernaut]

@Alessan

The burning cross is an ancient Highland Scots symbol.

Here’s an idea: next St. Andrews’s day (or whatever), a bunch of prominent Scots and Scottish-Americans should hold a parade in Manhattan. They’ll march up 5th Avenue - the city’s most popular parade route - until they reach, say, 125th St., where they’ll stop and light a whole bunch of crosses on fire to symbolize a gathering of the clans. I’m sure the crowd will LOVE it.

For safety reasons, I wouldn’t recommend this. Implicit in your example is that you may get hurt if you tried something like that. People that only know cross burning as a racist symbol would take offense and hurt you. And now we know why the fight against ignorance is taking longer than we thought.

I thought this message board was about fighting ignorance, and not feeding it. If people in Israel aren’t educated enough to know the real meaning of the swastika, perhaps they should be. And then perhaps they won’t take offense so easily. This is, of course, assuming that Alessan’s view represents that of many Israelis (which is a big assumption).

[chowder]

@jimbeam

I think this “debate” is not that great. It may have slipped into the opinion forum by now.
IMHO the swastika IS being reclaimed and in fact NEVER was lost in some cultures. Any attempt to FORCE acceptance on an unwilling society will be met with resistance. Radicals who still use the swastika as a symbol of hate are NOT helping to “reclaim” it’s spiritual intent.

I agree with you here but some people will always regard the swastika as a symbol of evil/hate because one man and the foul party he lead adopted it as their own emblem.

It’s unfortunate but that’s how it is.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Jackknifed Juggernaut

I thought this message board was about fighting ignorance, and not feeding it. If people in Israel aren’t educated enough to know the real meaning of the swastika, perhaps they should be. And then perhaps they won’t take offense so easily. This is, of course, assuming that Alessan’s view represents that of many Israelis (which is a big assumption).

The swastika is a symbol. It doesn’t have a “real meaning”. The only meanings it has is the meanings that people give it. You can say “the swastika means this to me” or “the swastika means this to Hindus”, but you can’t say what the swastika really means, or what the swastika should mean to me.

[jimbeam]

@chowder

I agree with you here but some people will always regard the swastika as a symbol of evil/hate because one man and the foul party he lead adopted it as their own emblem.

It’s unfortunate but that’s how it is.

I have no doubt and even said as much in my first post.
ie: There will always be folks who see the rebel flag as a promotion of slavery in the US. I don’t see it that way but I respect the opinions of those who do. I understand why they feel that way and would not force my beliefs on these folks.
They have an absolutely legitimate reason for the way they feel, regardless of what it means to anyone alse. It’s been 150 years since that symbol was “demonized” and it’s still too soon to reclaim it.

Personally, I don’t see the need to have a “symbol” of any kind for whatever reason. I have a wedding ring that could be considered a symbol but it is more of a tradition than anything else.

BTW most religious symbols are hated and despised by differing cultures. It’s not just restricted to the swastika. Christians w/their crosses have been murdered for millenia. I don’t think I would walk in some countries wearing a star of david either.

Let’s try reclaiming those symbols while we’re at it.

[jimbeam]

@Captain Amazing

The swastika is a symbol. It doesn’t have a “real meaning”. The only meanings it has is the meanings that people give it. You can say “the swastika means this to me” or “the swastika means this to Hindus”, but you can’t say what the swastika really means, or what the swastika should mean to me.

well said

[Puzzler]

I have read this thread as well as the former thread carefully, and would like to preset my personal subjective take on the issue.

Being a Jew and an Israeli, I learned a lot about the holocaust and about he Nazis. WWII and the holocaust are (understandably enough I think) very emotional for me. I emphasize: Emotional. My knowledge of Hindu culture is much more limited, and purely intellectual.

When I see a swastika, I get mental images of a marching Nazi army; of the Ghettos; of people dying in concentration camps; of the horrible stories I heard, both from my family and from other survivors. It does not matter where I see it, or in what context --that is always the way I see it.

Now if, for example, while in India I’ll see a swastika I will feel badly about it. I will think of it primary as a Nazi symbol. Yes, I know it’s an ancient Hindu symbol, and I do know it’s not meant to be Nazi… but this is how I’ll feel.

Should the Hindu majority in India give a damn about my feelings? No. Should they change their temples? Off course not. On the other hand, if I’ll be staying with a friend, I’d appreciate it if he won’t take me to such a temple – just as I won’t take him to a place that will hurt his feelings (E.g., a butcher shop). As far as I’m concerned, it is a matter of courtesy. Basically, the question is who will be hurt more. Naturally, I would not ask him to change his lifestyle. For example, if he has a large swastika in his living room, I won’t ask him to erase it (but I may choose not to visit him in his home). I won’t ask him to refrain from going to any temple of his choice. But I will ask him to honor my feeling and not force me to do / see / visit things that will make me uncomfortable – to say the least.

Taking Israel as another extreme: Israel has a large Jewish majority. Many of them are either survivors of the holocaust (fewer each year) or second generation of survivors. Hindu community is a small minority. I fully expect them to honor their surroundings. Just as I, when traveling abroad, honor the local customs, I expect them (residents or tourists) to honor me by not wearing a swastika in public.

FWIW, I think Europe / USA are a bit closer to Israel in that respect than to Asia. And yes, personally, I will not be as “forgiving” to a swastika in Europe as I am to one in Asia. When in Asia a swastika on a temple will probably result with a shudder by me before simply turning away and walking the other way. OTOH, when I was visiting Vienna, Austria, and saw a swastika embarked into a tree, I assure I did not think of a peaceful Hindu priest. I assumed (and I believe correctly) a skinhead neo-Nazi who’d want me dead. I was angry. I cursed a lot. I was not nice for a while.

Sorry about the long rant. I hope I managed to convey my feelings.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Captain Amazing

Doesn’t that sort of have an obvious answer? The Nazis were the ones using it, as recently as 60 years ago, to do horrible stuff (and neo-Nazis still do, in many cases horrible stuff to people like me (and like Alessan). So, regardless of how the symbol might have been used by some other group of people, or what warm and fuzzy feelings they might have toward the swastika, do you really expect us to look on it favorably?

You think the Nazis were bad, during the rape of Nanking, things got so bad that Nazis were trying to hide the civilians and protect them from the Japanese.

[Lemur866]

@Jackknifed Juggernaut

I thought this message board was about fighting ignorance, and not feeding it. If people in Israel aren’t educated enough to know the real meaning of the swastika, perhaps they should be. And then perhaps they won’t take offense so easily. This is, of course, assuming that Alessan’s view represents that of many Israelis (which is a big assumption).

Or maybe YOU should learn the real meaning of the swastika. And then perhaps you won’t take offense so easily when people say the swastika is a symbol of racist totalitarian genocide.

A swastika is a meaningless symbol, it only has the meaning that human beings give it. And the fact is, for hundreds of millions of people around the world, that meaning is genocide. You don’t get to decide how they interpret that symbol.

So if you’re so all fired eager to display a swastika, if you’re so upset that people take offense when you display a swastika, I’ve got to wonder why the hate and fear people will inevitably experience when they see that swastika doesn’t matter to you? What’s your motivation?

If you display a swastika in the US, Europe, or the Middle East, 99% of the people who see that swastika will take it as a symbol of support for totalitarian dictatorship, murderous fanaticism and genocide. You know it, I know it, the American people know it. If you don’t give a flying fuck what people think, then knock yourself out and display a swastika at all times, then you’ll have plenty of teachable moments to explain your interpretation of what the swastika means. Let me know how that works out for you.

[Captain_Amazing]

@col_10022

You think the Nazis were bad, during the rape of Nanking, things got so bad that Nazis were trying to hide the civilians and protect them from the Japanese.

I’m aware of the actions of John Rabe during the Rape of Nanking, just as I am of the actions of Chiune Sugihara, the Japanese consular official who helped over 2000 Polish and Lithuanian Jews escape the Nazis. I don’t know if their actions have any deeper meaning, though, other than that, even in the worst regimes, there are decent people who will work to fight the suffering they see around them.

[Jackknifed_Juggernaut]

@Lemur866

Or maybe YOU should learn the real meaning of the swastika. And then perhaps you won’t take offense so easily when people say the swastika is a symbol of racist totalitarian genocide.

I’ve never taken offense when people say that the swastika is a symbol of racist totalitarian genocide. I don’t take offense that easily. But I do my part to let them know about what it means to the people that it was stolen from. (In reality, this is rare since the subject doesn’t come up very often.)

A swastika is a meaningless symbol, it only has the meaning that human beings give it.

All symbols are meaningless, except to the humans that give meaning to it. Your grasp of the obvious is astounding!

And the fact is, for hundreds of millions of people around the world, that meaning is genocide. You don’t get to decide how they interpret that symbol.

But if their interpretation is based on ignorance, then don’t you think that I should help educate them? Perhaps YOU should also help, instead of facilitating more ignorance.

So if you’re so all fired eager to display a swastika, if you’re so upset that people take offense when you display a swastika, I’ve got to wonder why the hate and fear people will inevitably experience when they see that swastika doesn’t matter to you? What’s your motivation?

In reality, swastikas are displayed all over the place in the US, and no one takes offense. In fact, I live in a Jewish neighborhood, and my mother used to paint swastikas all over our sidewalk when we’d have holiday parties. At the time, both neighbors were Jewish, as well as the family directly across the street. No one ever took offense and we never heard a complaint. While my parents have moved, the neighbors across the street still live there and we still get along great. And since most of the neighborhood is still Jewish, they’ll occasionally stop me on a Friday to reset a circuit breaker in their house, since they’re not allowed to touch it.

If you display a swastika in the US, Europe, or the Middle East, 99% of the people who see that swastika will take it as a symbol of support for totalitarian dictatorship, murderous fanaticism and genocide. You know it, I know it, the American people know it.

Who put you in charge of speaking for the American people?

If you don’t give a flying fuck what people think, then knock yourself out and display a swastika at all times, then you’ll have plenty of teachable moments to explain your interpretation of what the swastika means. Let me know how that works out for you.

Where did you get the impression that I don’t care what people think? Would I waste my time with this thread if I didn’t care?