Alessan,
Here’s an idea. Instead of dregging up ancient stuff that’s no longer practiced, why not focus on what the people currently do. To my knowledge, Scots (Go ahead, ask me how I could possibly know anything about the Scottish. Really, go ahead.) don’t go around burning crosses all that much today. On the other hand, quite a few Buddhists do wear the swastika symbol and adorn their temples with it.
And quite a few Jews shudder at the sight of it. (Yes, I know – there are quite a lot more Buddhists. But still.)
Puzzler
The images you get are doubtless shared by many millions worldwide whether they are Jewish or Gentile.
Just bear in mind that any swastika that you see that has been recently inscribed is more than likely the handiwork of some idiot brained knuckle dragging moron who for some reason or other sees the works of the Nazis as something to be admired shudder
Old inscriptions of the swastika do not glorify the nazis/Hitler, they are symbols of an ancient culture, nothing more.
If you don’t want to go into a temple, don’t. But you should be aware that a fair number of them display that particular symbol on the outside. And you should also be aware that India is not Israel, nor is it pre-WWII Germany.
FYI: India does actually have butcher shops.
And yet your idea of courtesy is to expect him to, essentially, hide his religion from your eyes, in his country, in his home.
You were right in your description of the rest of your posting. It’s just a rant.
While my Geography knowledge leaves much to be desired, I do know the difference between India, Israel and Germany. Thank you all the same.
Apparently, you did not bother to actually read my post that you quoted. If you did, you might have seen:
Bolding added.
What’s wrong with it?
I believe in “live and let live”. You want to go around waving your swastika? Go ahead. Just don’t expect me to hang around.
No, no, and no.
I would not expect him to hide his religion from me. Does Buddhism require you to wear a swastika? Is it a religious necessity? Will it hurt his feelings to conceal it while I’m there?
Answer any of those questions in the positive, and you’ll see I will not ask / expect him to hide it from me. I will just choose not to be there. Is that OK with you? Or does courtesy for you mean you must drag me to places that I don’t like?
In his country? No. But, just as I wouldn’t go into one of your shrines with a big, juicy steak sandwich, even if I’m allowed to, I expect the same from you when in my country.
In his home? Please re-read the post you quoted.
Soooo sorry to bother you with it. Please feel free to skip my posts.
So, you want him to hide the symbol if he’s wearing it around you?
People who cannot overcome their emotional prejudies make me want to “go around waving my swastika” even though I am not particularly religious (nor an Eastern or American religionist.) When I see people pre-judging others I get an emotional reaction: it brings up pictures of discrimination and closemindedness. It is perhaps as intractable as your emotional reaction.
I don’t feel strongly enough about it to fly to Israel and fly the swastika in the middle of a crowded street. But if I were to go there, as an Anglo, wearing a simple swastika somewhere discreetly on my person, those who automatically assumed I was Neo-nazi or even just a deliberate provoker would be exposing their own prejudices (even thoughI would be a provoker, how can they know i am not using it as a religious symbol?). Even if others have worse prejudices, it doesn’t make yours (generic you) okay.
Anedote: the crimes against humanty in Bosnia affected me emotionally greatly as well, although I am not Yugoslavian. When I had a new co-worker in the mid-90s with a Yugoslavian accent I harbored a resentment of her that she was probably implicit in a lot of the crimes that occured in that area (again, just an emotional snap reaction.)
Then I realized the 90% of the people in that area were opposed to the massacres and torture: it takes a special sort of person to risk death for a principle, and I should not automatically assume someone holds certain political views given just a cursory exposure to their speech or dress.
Another point of this is that claiming exclusive use of a symbol as a symbol of the oppression of your people, even within “your” own country, establishes a culture of closedmindedness toward those who might think of casually visiting your country: it just seems to me to be bad karma, or vibes, or whatever it is, to discourage the use of foreign religious symbols: you have to ask yourself whether the temporary comfort of not seeing a symbol previously used evil is worth engendering feelings of unease and being-exclusing-by in those that previously held no ill will toward you.
Oh, dear… this is getting tiring…
Once more, I’ll refer you to my own words:
Let me elaborate a bit. Who is the “him” you’re talking about? If “he” is a friend of mine, he will probably not wear it near me anyway (or at least conceal it). If “he” is a stranger – well, “he” won’t have to, because I won’t be around.
Let me try a different angle. I have a number of handicapped friends (I really do). Now, there is no law forbidding me from making handicapped jokes (not that I’m inclined to anyway, but I’m trying to make a point here). Nevertheless, I will not tell such a joke near one of these friends. I will not want to hurt his feelings. So, my handicapped friends know they are “safe” with me. They may be stared at by strangers, in which case they may react in anger, insult, or dismissal – each according to his own conduct.
So, for that matter, consider me “rationally handicapped”. I know it’s not a totally rational / logical reaction to the swastika, but I don’t think I’ll ever be able to change it.
It must be wonderful to be so tolerant and open-minded, to the point where people telling you their feelings and fears makes you want to stick the object of that fear in their faces.
You know, some of the older people here (in Israel) still have a number tattooed in the inside of their forearms. These people are survivors from concentration camps. Do you honestly expect these people to disregard the symbol used by their tormentors and to associate it instead with a symbol of ancient Hindu culture? Don’t you think that for these people (at least) the immediate association of the swastika with the Nazi regime is understandable?
You want to talk anecdotes? During my (short) academic career, we had an older visiting scientist from Germany. He made no secret of his past: in his youth he was in the Nazi army, and after the war served some time in a POW camp. Later, he denounced the Nazi doctrine, and actually became rather fond of Israel. I assure you, not a single person held grunge against him. No one (but himself) ever mentioned his past.
Now, was he to wear a swastika…
First, why did you put inverted commas around “your”? I’m am an Israeli, hence Israel is my country, just as the states is yours.
Second, if Hindu visitors will fail to understand the emotional reaction a swastika will raise in Israel, or will understand and decide to ignore it, then my high esteem for this culture will be much diminished.
And I think you may want to ask yourself whether the temporary comfort of not keeping your good luck charm out of sight worth engendering feelings of unease, fear, nightmares, and even hate toward you.
Finally, a factual question:
What is the stance of the swastika in Hindu culture? Is it a religious necessity (like the skullcap for orthodox Jews)? Is it an essential part of the religion that basically identifies you (like the cross for Christians)? Is it even a religious symbol, or simply a cultural symbol?
[Please try to answer factually… I’m really asking this out of ignorance in the matter. And isn’t fighting ignorance that whole purpose of SDMB?]
I put it in quotes so as to not imply that everyone felt the same way as you, even though it appears that most do.
My esteem for Israel is definitely diminished by the seeming unanimity of blind hatred shown by SDMB posters. Not that it was first on my vacation list, but I have slightly less desire to go there now than I did before these two threads, knowing that people harbor an intractable prejudice against those who decide to utilize a certain design.
I am sorry it makes you feel this way.
But try to answer this for me, if you will:
If you answered “yes” to any of these questions, I think we have no common ground for discussion on the subject.
If you answered “no” to all, please explain to me why you can’t consider the swastika similarly offensive to Jewish communities.
Then try understanding a point that a numbef of us have attempted to explain to you.
Let me elaborate a bit. Who is the “him” you’re talking about? If “he” is a friend of mine, he will probably not wear it near me anyway (or at least conceal it). If “he” is a stranger – well, “he” won’t have to, because I won’t be around.
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Try reading what I wrote in response instead of doing the knee-jerk bit. Your hypothetical friend who you, yet again, state would feel the need to hide his religious icon from you for…what reason do you have again?
You equate the man’s religion with a joke?
As has been explained to you time after time after time, that object you insist on fearing is not that object as used in Buddhist and Hindu cultures.
See above comment.
Gyatso, the Buddhist guy who drove me from Lhasa to Everest base camp last year, had swastikas tattooed on his hands as a symbol of his piety. I guess Puzzler would want him to wear gloves, were they ever to meet?
No, I wouldn’t in some cases, out of respect, which many mosques have earned due to tolerance. Others, I wouldn’t because it’s dangerous due to knee-jerk hatred. (And health reasons)
No, that would be dangerous due to knee-jerk hatred (in fundamentalist Hindu neighborhoods.) In non-fundie neighborhoods, I would have no problem starting a BBQ: the spirit of free enterprise trumps other peoples “rights” not to be offended. And non-fundie Hindus probably enjoy a good pork sammich now and again.
No, I wouldn’t in some cases, out of respect, which many churches have earned due to tolerance. Others, I wouldn’t because it’s dangerous due to knee-jerk hatred.
No, that would be dangerous due to knee-jerk hatred.
Guess what: I understand. The swastika was used by Hindus long before it was used by the Nazis. Therefore I should disassociate it with the Nazis and remember only the Hindu origins.
Well, guess what else: I don’t agree. Is that so hard to understand?
I have read everything you wrote very carefully. My hypothetical friend would do that, because we are – surprise! – friends. In my dictionary, friends do not hurt each other’s feelings. My feeling would be hurt by seeing a swastika. If your feelings would be hurt by not showing it, I guess we will not be able to be friends. You know, sometimes it happens. Not every random couple of people has enough to become friends.
No, as I’m sure you realize. I was trying to equate hurt feelings.
And as I have explained over and over: I know, but the usage by the Nazi regime is much closer for me, both in time and in space.
Let me repeat my question a third time: What is the stance of Hindu / Buddhism regarding the swastika? Feel free to elaborate.
Oh, why stop there? Why not suggesting I’d like to amputate his hands?
Don’t you see a difference between placing a, say, necklace inside your shirt and wearing gloves at all times?
As for Gyatso, would probably try to avoid him anyway. But if was sop happened that I would get to know him, and became friends with him, I would not mind his tattoos. Tattoos are not easily removed. Wearing a swastika necklace in the open knowing how I feel about it will just prove to me disregards for my feelings.
So, let’s see:
You have some respect for mosques and churches.
You have no respect, only fear for some mosques, some churches, some Hindu followers, and for all African Americans.
At least we know where you stand.
Things should be viewed in context. If you’re standing outside a Buddhist Temple and see the swastika on the gate it is not and never was intended to be a nazi symbol.
Would you think it silly for a black person to be uncomfortable to be around a tree? I can understand why they’d feel uncomfortable when brought to a tree actually used to lynch people. That would be in context.
Why would you feel uncomfortable seeing a Buddhist temple with the swastika? It isn’t a symbol of hatred in context.
Don’t ever go to SE Asia either BTW. I’ve seen lots of swastikas in Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia. None had anything to do with Germany or the Nazis fucks who tried to carry out the destruction of your people.
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This is just silly. It is not a Nazi symbol on his hand. It is a Buddhist symbol. You know this. You understand this and yet you’d try to avoid him. Would you complain to his boss if he was wearing a necklace about his insensitivity to you? It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if Gyatso never even heard of the Holocaust. I knew a Thai girl who had heard the name Jesus but wasn’t too sure who he actually was.
Somebody who is wearing or showing the swastika in order to identify with the Nazi party should be hated/scorned/kicked IMO but again context is everything.
You read my mind :dubious: A certain percentage of people can ruin it for everyone.
** yojimbo**, thank you for giving a clam response.
Yes, context is important. I know the swastika on the Buddhist temple has nothing to do with the holocaust. I guess if I grew up in a primary-Hindu culture, that is the way I would see it. But I didn’t – I grew up learning a lot about the Nazis. First impressions are hard to erase.
And I don’t think your tree analogy is very accurate. I do not feel uncomfortable near buildings, even though the concentration camps had buildings.
Let me try a different analogy: let’s say some twisted fashion designer, who had never even heard of the KKK, released a new design of the spring of 2007 – an all-white outfit, with a pointed hood. Let’s say also that for some reason it caught on. Don’t you think AA will feel uncomfortable seeing this, even though it has nothing to do with the KKK?
You’d probably be surprised, but I agree. I’m not proud of the way I feel.
On the other hand (no pun intended), I never actually came across this situation. Maybe I would react differently. I wouldn’t have assumed I would not think of the German scientist’s (of whom I wrote upthread) past – but I didn’t. Maybe upon meeting Gyatso I would soon forget about his tattoos and become best friends with him.
Oh, and BTW, my boss was born to holocaust survivors in Poland a couple of years after WWII. She would not have been as tolerant as me, believe it or not.
BTW Puzzler good on you for not getting you back up in this thread. I have seen people become very defensive when asked lots of questions by lots of users.
I can understand* why the swastika is such a strong image for you but was just confused by why even though you know that the symbol isn’t always connected to Nazis and in fact for the vast majority of time before those bastards took it as theirs was a positive symbol, you still would avoid it in Asia etc. I guess reflex is stronger than intellect 
*In the best way I can I suppose. Not being Jewish. We are thought a LOT about European history though so I’m very familiar with the monumental horror that took place.