I actually am completely mystified by this - to the point where I’m thinking you’re pulling our legs. But I see by subsequent posts that you’re not. I’m thinking instead, then, that you’re not very worldly.
Anyway, Here’s Gyatso. You can’t actually see the tattoo there, just a blur. Nice chap. Not a Nazi. Though his hair is a little suspciously drawn down over his forehead…
If it arose independently of knowledge of the KKK, paralleling the development of the swastika, then I’d say that American blacks who automatically assume the wearer is racist and take steps to avoid the wearers even in countries that have never even heard of the KKK need to take a big cup of “Get Over Yourself”.
The Klan analogy is indeed apt, btw. ISTR several self-identified black posters here on the SDMB that claim they would kick the shit out of a white person that did that in the hood, or at least sympathize with those that did. Now certainly a true racist deserves that, if not legally, but a mere provoker or a clueless person or a person there for a dressup party or somesuch does not and how can you tell the difference between the two? In this situation again, those that would look the other way with first use of aggression make me rethink my attitudes on whether I would be accepted in primarily AA neighborhoods, even when I don’t sport a hood and robes.
I really can’t believe some of the posters here.
You’re deeply offended because, as a white guy, if you wore a swastika most people would assume you’re a fucking neo-nazi. How close minded we are!
You know that the swastika is (among other things) a symbol of genocide. You know that most people who see that swastika will belive it means that you support genocide. And yet you whine about it!
Fact is, lots of people in the US and Europe use the swastika as a symbol of support for genocide, even today. You think the neonazis with swastika armbands are wearing them as a joke? As a way of challenging our assumptions? As a symbol of solidarity with their hindu brothers? Fuck no. They display the swastika because they love genocide. You know it, I know it, the American people know it.
So if you display a swastika, you must mean to communicate something. What do you mean to communicate? Communication requires a common understanding between the sender of the signal and the reciever of the signal. So it is disingenous for you to pretend that the swastika doesn’t communicate hatred, death, fear, and genocide for hundreds of millions of people. Yeah, there are other people on other continents who might interpret your attempt to communicate differently.
But we’re not in India, and you’re not Hindus, and anyone who displays a swastika in the US is a jerk. Why? Because they KNOW how that display will be interpreted, but they don’t care. If you don’t care that people will take you for a NeoNazi, then you’re a jerk. Wearing that swastika armband reveals something about you. It may not be what you believe you are communicating by wearing that swastika armband, but the message is recieved loud and clear. The fact that you disagree doesn’t make you right and the hundreds of millions of other people wrong.
Have you actually read this thread? Talk about exaggerating a position. Puzzler was saying he’d “avoid” my Buddhist acquaintance because of his religious tattoo. Not a white guy wearing a Nazi armband, but one of at least a billion adherents for whom the swastika is a millennia-old symbol of peace and goodness. The best thing to do would be to educate insular people that this is so, rather than perpetuate the abhorrence of something that, in context, is actually innocuous.
To answer the OP
I think it’s obvious from this thread alone that it’s too soon to expect everyone to overlook the nazi influence on the swastika.
Like the man said, “in context.”
Yes. Yes I have. Why are you so hot and bothered to display a fucking swastika?
If I saw you wearing a swastika, I’ll assume you’re a NeoNazi. As will most people who see that swastika. As you well know.
So if you display a swastika, you’re a jerk. Simple.
I don’t get upset that Hindus and Buddhists in Asia display swastikas, I don’t have a visceral reaction to the display of a swastika, I understand context. Like, if you’re an actor in a production of “The Sound of Music” and wear a nazi uniform, I don’t think you’re secretly a neonazi.
But if you wear that nazi uniform on the subway or while gardening, I’m going to take a different view. And rightly so…because there really are neonazis who really do love the swastika as a symbol of genocide, and they are growing in number. Do the math.
You’re not going to improve the planet by displaying a swastika. You’re going to create fear, hatred, and loathing. So why are you doing it? Do you WANT to create fear and hatred? No, of course not…which is why you don’t wear a swastika, which is why I don’t wear a swastika, which is why all white guys from Europe and America don’t wear swastikas.
Cool. So you agree with jjimm.
Cool. So you agree with jjimm.
His very first sentence in the thread was
The only point that jjimm is really addressing is that there are billions of people on this planet that don’t have the same association with the symbol as you, I or he has.
Where has it been stated in this thread that it was cool for a US/European to fly the sign for neo-nazi reasons?
What a loaded comment. If you oppose routine wiretappings and strip & cavity searches at the airport, you just hate America. Why do you HATE freedom?
Why do you and others here keep conflating swastikas with wearing Nazi uniforms, wearing sheets & burning flags in African American neighborhoods & waving Nazi flags through Israel? What is it with you?
“I want to be able to wear a small swastika around my neck.”
“Fine! Go ahead and put your NAZI HATE MONGERING UNIFORM on and wave your NAZI FLAG all over the place. SEE WHAT HAPPENS!”
OTOH, I do see a problem with reclaiming the swastika. See, I am all for it. But I fear in order to reclaim it we’ll have to popularize it. At least re-popularize it here in the West. That would mean the gangsta rappers wearing big gold ones around their necks as bling. It would mean Madonna shooting mildly pornographic music videos while wearing a swastika (which would be really weird as she converted to Judaism) just to piss people off & create controversy. I wouldn’t be too thrilled with the younger generation running around showing off their swastika bling.
I have no problems with answering honest question. I must admit I didn’t think it will turn into a sort of “ask the Israeli guy” thread (not that I think that would be a success). What I really didn’t expect is the personal attacks about my… feelings.
How can I explain my feelings toward the swastika? It may be impossible. I hardly think the Nazi regime with the mixture of hate, genocide intensions, organization skills, etc. has parallels elsewhere. But let me try an example from fiction – just to (maybe) better explain my POV.
If you are a Sci-Fi fan, you may be familiar with Arthur C. Clark’s novel “Childhood’s end” (from the early 1950’s). In this story, aliens “take over” earth. They have come (in the beginning) to help mankind. They stop the arms-race, and thanks to them, Earth enters a golden age of prosperity. But, they also declare, that for 50 years after their arrival, humans may not know how they look.
When the 50 years pass, we find that these aliens have dark red skin, leathery wings, horny heads, and tails. Pointed tails. I guess you get the picture. In their wisdom, they knew mankind will not be able to overcome their appearance even though they are the “good guys”.
I guess my feelings are somewhat similar. Even knowing something isn’t evil doesn’t necessarily change your upbringing feelings – especially in deep-rooted issues.
I have been honest throughout the thread.
I guess you can say I’m not very worldly. I didn’t leave Israel until I was 16 years old. Since, I have done some traveling and have made several buddies abroad (I can’t honestly call someone from a different continent a friend) – but the vast majority of those are from the states, with a small minority from Europe. I have met Asian people only on business occasions, and then either in Israel on in Europe – and personal issues were not discussed.
Gyatso seems a nice enough guy. I’ve been thinking about it. I now believe that if I had met him without knowing about the tattoos (let’s assume it was cold and he had gloves on for the sake of discussion), and only after a while I learned about them, I would probably be able to overlook them. I still wouldn’t feel comfortable – but I think I’ll overcome it. OTOH, had I seen the tattoos first, my first impression of Gyatso would be “that guy with the swastika” – and first impressions are hard to break.
Note, though, that tattoos are rather harder to conceal than necklaces…
Ludovic,
This being the web, I know absolutely nothing about you. But if I’ll dare a guess, I’d say you are a rather educated, white American. If that is indeed the case, then “you” have been the top dog ever since you remember. It would be probably impossible for you to imagine what’s it’s like to being hated – actively, murderously hated – just because you belong to a certain group.
But ask yourself this question: you have seen now at least two Israeli guys with similar feelings toward the swastika. You have seen AA react similarly to a position you admit is a good analogy. So maybe, just maybe, these feeling are not just “knee-jerks”, but are at least somewhat understandable?
Maybe because only 70 years ago the Nazis, wearing Nazi uniforms bearing a swastika were marching under the Nazi swastika flag? It wasn’t me (or “us”) that made the connection – the Nazis did that.
To me (and probably many others) the swastika will create fear, hatred, and loathing. In that sense, to me, the swastika is forever lost as a symbol of good luck. Just another (and not even close to being the main) one of the harms done by the Nazis.
Good question.
Let me think about it for a second.
Maybe all those Nazi uniforms with swastikas worn by Nazis waving Nazi swastika flags, going out and destroying Europe and shoving Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, communists, and freethinkers into gas chambers? Then incinerating them in giant ovens? And brutally conquring most of Europe under the Nazi symbol of the swastika?
Yeah, that’s probably it. Call me crazy, I just happen to associate the Nazi symbol with…well, Nazism. And Nazi genocide. And all the other bad things the Nazis did under the Nazi swastika. Like Nazis operating in a Nazi-like manner spreading Nazism, and stuff.
See, it’s not so hard to understand, now is it?
It’s not a Nazi symbol, otherwise we wouldn’t be having this thread. It’s one thing to be averse to the Nazi Swastika in the context of Nazi paraphernalia, it’s another to dislike all hooked crosses no matter what their orientation, chirality, or context.
How in the world can you say that the swastika is not a Nazi symbol?
The swastika is (among other things) a Nazi symbol. That’s just a fact. The Nazis used the swastika as the symbol of Nazism. Ergo, the swastika is a Nazi symbol. Just like the cross is (among other things) a Christian symbol, the crescent is an Islamic symbol, the shamrock is an Irish symbol, the eagle an American symbol, the bear a Russian symbol, the Hammer and Sickle a Soviet symbol, etc.
Sure, you can find other uses of a cross (albeit usually equal-armed crosses) that predate Christianity, but Christians use the cross as a Christian symbol. Nazis use the swastika as a Nazi symbol.
Just because Hindus use the swastika as a Hindu symbol doesn’t erase history. Just because Hindus used the swastika for thousands of years doesn’t change the fact that the swastika is also the symbol of racism, genocide, and brutality…because the Nazis made it into the symbol of racism, genocide and brutality by engaging in racism, genocide and brutality while marching under the swastika.
I think we all understand your point. The swastika (no matter how innocently intended) reminds you of a painful episode in the history of your people and you would rather not be reminded of that history. I think you’re being oversensitive.
I am not Jewish and I can tell you that I was shocked to go to a foreign country and see more swastikas than you would have seen in Nazi Germany, but after a while you get used to it. I bet if you actually went to India to visit your friend, you would be offended for a couple of days and then you wouldn’t even notice the swastikas anymore.
That’s funny, several people quietly chatting to me in the spirit of racial camaraderie when I walked through the 'hood in Sarasota saw it differently.
I must confess that it is very difficult for me to imagine this hatred, when applied to anything other than skin color or outward appearance: it seems to take too much effort to rise to this level of evil. But simply because something is puzzling doesn’t mean it’s not true. And there are plenty of anti-intellectuals and anti-caucasian groups in living memory in America (and some extant) who wouldn’t raise a hand to prevent me from being killed for who I am.
I never said the feelings aren’t “somewhat understandable”. I just don’t think they are appropriate and they do nothing to heal ethnic divisions. It’s possible they do nothing, but if anything they make people less sympathic to your cause by giving the impression that many if not most people in your previously-targetted group are self-righteous blowhards just looking for an excuse to be offended. I’ve never been to Israel but upon seeing these two threads I would feel uncomforatble there, analogous but not as powerful a feeling of walking-on-eggshells as knowing that there are assholes there with chips on their shoulders in the 'hood. Granted, some of them go further than mere revulsion and actively tell you to leave “their” neighborhood, as if you offended them simply by being white, and I don’t think that would happen in Israel even though I am pretty noticably Germanic, but considering the commonality between the feelings amongst the two peoples I can’t be so sure now.
How does displaying a swastika heal ethnic divisions? In my opinion, refraining from displaying a swastika in Europe and America DOES heal ethnic divisions, because you are very likely to be taken for a NeoNazi if you display a swastika. Displaying a swastika enflames ethnic divisions, refraining from displaying a swastika therefore heals ethnic divisions. Your choice as to which path you choose.
And maybe you pro-swastika people are self-righteous blowhards just looking for an excuse to offend? Or maybe you’re offended that you can’t display a swastika because it might hurt some crybaby’s feelings? Don’t you think that might make people “less sympathetic to your cause”?
I suppose if you went to Israel and insisted on openly displaying a swastika while you’re there, you might feel a bit uncomfortable. The solution is to refrain from displaying a swastika, because you know it will offend people. Since you can refrain from giving offense by the simple measure of not wearing a swastika armband/necklace/forehead tattoo, why wouldn’t you?
I simply can’t understand this. On the one hand, being able to display a swastika seems very important to you. Why? Because you feel the swastika is a powerful symbol for good? And yet you can’t feel any empathy for those who instead feel the swastika is a powerful symbol for evil. Makes no sense. Either the symbol is important or unimportant. If it is important, then the evil symbolism surely cannot be dismissed as unimportant either. And if it is unimportant, then the display of a swastika is surely unimportant, and your insistence on displaying one is puzzling.
I think it’s pretty safe to say in 500 years there won’t be any possibility of white nationalism.
You know, I always wondered how the Jewish community in India felt about the symbol. There was a sizeable population of them in Kochin (and their actual neighbourhood is called “Jewtown”…I am not kidding…my father the Hindu lived there in the 70s).
Anyway, getting back to the topic…I’m afraid that manner in which I live my life mirrors jjim’s so I’m a bit of a PC copout. I spent my adolescence in a heavily Jewish town in Massachusetts and for me and my family, it simply wasn’t worth the price of hurting our friends’ feelings-many of whom were barely removed from the Holocaust (my friends being the grandchildren of survivors). Given that both Buddhism & Hinduism have alternative, more evocative symbols (aum for Hinduism, the dharmachakra for Buddhism), it didn’t seem like that big a deal to go and weed out the stuff that had swastikas on it when we moved there.
On the other hand, demanding that Hindus or Buddhists remove the symbol from their temples and religious houses goes over the line for me. That is about the extent to which I believe the symbol should be “reclaimed.”
By the way, do you guys know that a lot of furniture from Cost Plus World Market will come with swastikas on the screws? Most of their stuff is imported from India.
Well, to you, yes it does seem hard to understand. You seem as obsessed about symbolism as the Nazis. Let’s see:
Uniforms and flags are mentioned. Everyone from the UN to sports fans have flags and uniforms that , wow, are symbolic of the group. No. I’m going to word that differently. Not symbolic, identifying. The Green Bay Packers and Grambling University football teams have the identical “G” on their helmets. One must be representative of the other (And Green Bay has still won more professional titles than any other team. Still licking my wounds.) 
The fundamental aspects of each entity is different. One is a university educating people, one is a business provided solely for entertainment. So which one has to give up the logo? They must mean the same thing to everyone since they look exactly the same. Oh, wait. The Nazi swastika and the traditional swastika are different? Never mind, then.
Well, if it’s a fact that the swastika is a Nazi symbol, than what’s with the “among other things” qualifier? The OP (I think) started this thread to debunk this narrow, simplistic view. It is not a Nazi symbol. It is a symbol the Nazis co-opted for themselves. Does that make sense when worded that way? I have sympathy for those that suffered under Hitler, but it was Hitler’s regime that commited the atrocities, not the symbol they bastardized. Again, as the OP seems to desire, is a return to teaching what the symbol actually represents, not what a psychotic found in a history text.
Oh Good Lord, will you give this up? There are not the ethnic divides in the US you seem to want people to think. Out of 300 million people you’re going to have a few thousand that want to perpetrate the swastika as a symbol of Jewish destruction. There are just as many if not more people that use a tree or bunny as a symbol of their group to vandalize Big Corporations to “defend” the environment. ELF, anyone? Though I’m not sure what their logo is this week.
The very fact that you state a swastika makes you *de facto[/] a Nazi in the public’s eye is exactly the reason for education on the symbol itself. I mentioned before teaching the history of the symbol when teaching WWII to clarify the symbol. But that ain’t gonna happen as long as we can get out nuts in a tizzy over the symbol.
Let’s just scrap the symbol and forget what it was used for, what it was designed to mean, and what it currently means to millions of people. You’re the exact type of person that keeps me from preserving the history inherent in the WWII flags I have. If you were working in the shop cleaning them, I’d be fearful I wouldn’t get them back. Of course, I won’t clean them myself since that would involve leaving them outside to dry, and if you were my neighbor, I’d be just as screwed.
Yeah. There was a guy a while back that required certain houses of worship be shut down based on an identifying symbol the members used. Actually, he required the people themselves be shut down.
The name eludes me, but I could swear I’ve heard of him before.
perpetuate.
(Much) more accurately, one specific variation of the swastika, (one that, in fact, rarely appears outside Nazi Germany), is a Nazi symbol.
The Nazi Hakenkreuz was, specifically, a swastika with a dexter orientation, tipped 45° so that it rested on the bend of one arm, and the width of each arm was exactly the same dimension of the distance between the end of the arm and the adjacent bend and the length of each arm was exactly three times the length of the arm. (While some variations occurred, such as those posted by MEBuckner, earlier in the thread, those were localized variations that still followed most of the rules I have described, varying only in orientation.)
In addition, any time the Hakenkreuz was displayed in color, it was presented as a black shape on a white circle bordered by red.
So, a swastika with a sinister orientation OR placed flat on one arm OR having narrow arms or arms that were longer than three times their width OR displayed in other colors is simply NOT a Nazi symbol.
I understand the emotional reaction to any swastika, based on an association with the particular Nazi Hakenkreuz, but it is an error of fact to claim that “the swastika” is a Nazi symbol when the actual Nazi symbol employed a very specific representation of the swastika–and one which differs from the vast majority of other decorations found in Buddhist, Hindu, Navajo, or Jewish art.