Can we please not call Joseph Rosenbaum a "hero"?

My point was simply that I believe crowmanycloud’s statement “Meanwhile, black guys get shot for carrying a wallet”, when juxtaposed with a picture of Rittenhouse carrying his gun, creates a misimpression. Black people can, and do, take advantage of open carry laws. There are countless examples of black people exercising their right to open carry, both alone and in groups of varying sizes, without being harassed (or worse) by the police.

As for the study you cited, I think getting too deep into that would constitute a hijack of this thread. However, it should be noted that other studies have been done which show no racial disparity in police shootings. I’d be happy to discuss that further in another thread, if you decide to start one.

I’m just amused that the one time MAGATS scream about a pedophile they were right and it doesn’t matter.

The one that was tried, convicted, and served his sentence? Yeah, they’re mostly mad they couldn’t elect him to public office first.

Sure, but I’m not sure “Treat everyone as badly as Black people get treated,” is the best way to solve racial inequity.

I do pity him-clearly he should not have been there.

It does not. May I introduce you to this thread. where many black people were shot because cops thought they had guns? Where a black cop was beaten because other cops thought he was a protestor? If Rittenhouse had been black, he would have been shot no matter what side he was on.

Not only am I familiar with that thread, you and I actually had a conversation in it :slightly_smiling_face: - though it was a while ago. The thread makes for pretty distressing reading, obviously, but we should be mindful of the fact that its statistical relevance is limited.

The thread contains a long list of isolated incidents. Some of those incidents - I couldn’t say how many, but by my recollection probably quite a lot of them - are undeniably racist in nature. Nobody would argue that there’s no such thing as a racist cop. But they’re also curated by a fairly small group of people, whose political leanings are reasonably similar, and who probably consume many similar news sources. Those news sources, in my experience, tend to give a great deal of coverage to stories of young black men who are mistreated by the cops (as they should!) but tend to give next to no coverage of members of any other demographic who suffer similar mistreatment. If, as I suspect, the incidents in that thread are largely culled from those sources, then the thread will most likely present a skewed picture of the threat cops pose to young black men, compared to the threat they pose to young white, Asian, or Hispanic men.

An examination of the incredibly useful Washington Post Police Shootings database reveals that there’s a wealth of examples of trigger-happy cops shooting white and Hispanic men on extremely flimsy pretexts. For instance, crowmanyclouds references the example of a black man shot for holding a wallet - the implication being that such things just don’t happen to white men in America. But it took me less than a minute to find an example of a white man shot by a cop for holding a wallet. I’ll link to dashcam footage below, but I’ll spoiler box it and break the link because it’s an upsetting video:

To cut a long story short, if you watch the Rittenhouse footage, and your knowledge of police violence is limited to the examples found in the ‘Controversial encounters’ thread, then it’s completely understandable why you might think that a black kid would never have gotten away with doing what Rittenhouse did.

However, when we look at the totality of police violence we see that, actually, trigger-happy cops shoot white and hispanic young men for unjustifiable reasons far too often as well. When you combine that with the evidence already presented that many black people routinely exercise their right to open carry without incident, it becomes much harder to argue either (a) that a black kid who did what Rittenhouse did would’ve been shot by the cops (because black people exercise their right to open carry all the time), or (b) that Rittenhouse only escaped with his life because he was white (because white people are also frequently the victims of badly trained, trigger-happy cops).

What an interesting grouping. If you combine the stats from two different groups they surpass the stats from another single group. Can you unstack that deck and give us the three separate stats for a fair comparison?

Who said anything about “surpass?”

My opinion on police shootings and a disproportionate number of the persons shot being non-white is generally described by: The police are wayyyyyy too ready to shoot folks, in general. I’ve had my easily sunburned ass told decades ago to “Put your hands on the tailgate of the truck - and if you move, I will shoot you” when a cop thought my truck might have been stolen and he was running the VIN (it wasn’t stolen, the dashboard had been replaced).

Couple that with the fact that the cops are far more likely to deal with people of color for a variety of reasons (yes, I can’t think of any that aren’t the result of many different levels of racism). You end up with one group also being disproportionately shot by police and another disproportionately not shot by police.

But it seems to me that there are two separate, but intertwined problems there. Even if you somehow figure out how to fix all the other problems that plague those communities and get the statistics for what group gets shot by cops to a distribution that looks proportional to the demographics of the population, you’re still going to end up with what looks to me as being too many people dying at the hands of the police for stupid reasons.

However, even in extreme situations, the police can sometimes behave almost sanely. In the 2016 shooting of several Dallas PD and civilians, Mark Hughes surrendered his rifle without getting shot. As far as I can tell, he did it because you don’t want to be walking around with a rifle after you’ve been identified as a suspect in an ambush of police. The Dallas PD naming him as a suspect for what I can tell was no reason other than being a black guy with a rifle at the protests seems to be just the beginning of other dumbass shit they did with regard to Mr. Hughes - but they didn’t shoot him for carrying a rifle, even in that situation.

Isolated incidents? I think not. There are certainly NOT isolated. They show that the police in general are awash in fascism, racism and whole host of other evils. And we cannot have any ‘one bad apple’ talk. The bad apples are entrenched, and in positions of authority, and the good apples are complicit in their evil.

Remember, those are only incidents we KNOW about. There are no doubt plenty we do not know about as the wasn’t video and if there’s no video, they are not likely to make the news. No one contradicts the cop’s version without video.

I always go back to the cop in South Carolina who stopped a black man. When the black man turned and ran, the officer calmly shot him in the back, killing him. He radioed in saying that the black man attacked him and took his taser and he was just defending hisself. Video then shows him dropping a weapon on the corpse in full view of his partner.

Had it not been for video, taken unbeknownst to the cops by a bystander, the cop’s story would have been the official version. He would have been praised and called a hero. THAT is why cops are violent to people who film them with their call phones. They do not want the public to see what they do. THEY want their version to be the ‘truth’.

If George Floyd’s murder had not been caught on video, he would be just another statistic. The cop did not give a shit about killing him. And the other cops there had no problem watching him get killed.

Oh, did you see the link in the other thread about the white cop convicted of raping an unconscious woman and sexually assaulting others…and he gets to serve his sentence at home? A convicted rapist and he was grounded! . AND HE HASN’T EVEN BEEN FIRED. Would YOU call that justice? That is just a long way of saying juries and judges can be incredibly fucked up and cops can be more evil than any criminal they catch.

The police officer who shot Jacob Blake whose name is Rusten Sheskey was cleared of wrongdoing at both the state and federal level and he’s still working as a cop. Kyle also walked free and unlike Sheskey he might have to do much working once that settlement money starts coming in. If the Darrell Brooks parade attack was a result of the Rittenhouse verdict which I strongly suspect it is, the the BLM movement did more harm than good. A bunch of dead people including one child(so far)and none of them are black. If you want to be a BLM activist you should be both responsible and competent and I’m not seeing much of either. You’re 0-3 in Wisconsin.

There are a ridiculous number of steps required to get from what happened at the Wisconsin parade to “it’s all BLM’s fault”, but you took all of them.


You mean he’s going to have to do a bunch of working to pay off the wrongful death settlements against him? I really don’t understand what you are saying here.

What makes you suspect this? Is there any reason whatsoever, other than it would be convenient to a narrative that you have imagined?

C’mon he’s Black, he’s a criminal, he hates White people, what more do you need to see that he’s almost certainly a founding member of BLM?

This here is a good post. It also highlights why I think the riots with all of their looting and arson to have been so counterproductive. It’s in everyone’s interest to have a well trained and non criminal infested police force/justice system. However, when the alternative is anarchy a large proportion will choose to tolerate state brutality.

Especially when the state is being brutal to someone else.

Exactly. It’s a expected value calculation really and it’s probably one of if not the worst aspects of our society.

A significant proportion will not only tolerate police brutality but celebrate and encourage it under those circumstances, and may even deliberately exaggerate the threat of anarchy as a justification. It’s a classic authoritarian move.

Yep, and it is ones that those who are not being brutalized by the state either turn a blind eye to, or actively encourage.

They will even undermine the efforts of anyone trying to change the system to be less brutal, often invoking fever dream nightmare scenarios, deliberately conflating peaceful demonstrations with the activities of unlawful individuals, hyperbolize any incident into a catastrophe, and entirely misrepresent the goals of those working against the brutality of the system.

You know, like you do in every post.