I do submit that a Cirque du Soleil performer, especially the most daring ones, do put more risk and demonstrate more variety of athletic skill than a pro wrestler does. That is one factor why some wrestling matches try to imitate a more macabre form of this circus.
But even then, Trucido, you still fall into the fallacy of thought: “If it isn’t competitive sport, then the person doesn’t have to be an athlete to excel.” Even in chess, yes, the sit-down game, because of the immense mental ability required to succeed, many of the players today adopt to excelling in some form of athletic exercise to help foster the mind, and to keep it alert during the grueling sessions. And that is the key part to being an athlete: excelling in some form, or many forms, of exercise, through concentrated focus and practice. Imagine a non-athlete going up there trying to do the moves that the Cirque du Soleil or a pro wrestler does day after day. On second thought, let’s not think that.
Wrestlers breakfall better than anybody else; they have to or else they get killed or maimed with the moves done to each other. The throws they do, which comes from one of several martial arts, are practiced to perfection, both on the uke part and the tori part, before they are performed during the match. Although the moves are for show, there is a good reason why there is the constant admonisment “Never try this at home.” IRL these moves can be deadly.
I’m unclear as to exactly what you’re arguing here, Capacitor. Although a performance by a professional wrestler takes certain physical skills, it’s much more closely related to what a live actor does on stage than it is to athletics. Are actors in plays athletes, too? Chess as a sport might be a stretch, but it is a unscripted test of skills through and through, entirely analogous to almost any head-to-head sport.
Just because they are actors doesn’t mean they can’t be athletes, too. Just like someone in an opera could be both a singer and an actor. Yes, wrestlers are mimicking a fight, which makes them actors, but they also are performing a physical, complicated, choreographed routine, which makes them just as much of athletes as gymnasts, ballet dancers, figure skaters, etc.
Hayabusa is currently still hospitalized as a result of breaking his neck in a botched highspot last week. The prognosis is still uncertain, but the last report I saw indicated he has no feeling below his waist at this time. Even on Broadway, they only break a leg.
And the two aren’t very far apart. You ever acted on stage? It’s hard work, man. It takes a lot out of you.
The thing you’re forgetting, however, is that pro wrestlers don’t have the luxury of dozens of hours of rehearsal. In theatre, there’s a rule we follow: Three hours of rehearsal for each minute of stagetime. For a two hour show (like Smackdown), that’s 360 hours, or 15 days, that they should rehearse if you want your comparison to be accurate.
But they don’t have 15 days to rehearse the show. They have, maybe, one day. Maybe two, at best.
Most of what a wrestler does is made up on the fly. Sure, the big, elaborate climaxes to matches are planned in advance, and they often try orchestrate how the match should go, but matches occasionally go wrong. So they have to improvise. It requires massive amounts of both physical and mental ability.
Do not put down something you don’t understand, Trucido. And don’t try to use comparisons that you don’t understand, either.
You’re mixing things up here, Monocracy. Gymnasts and figure skaters are athletes because they compete in a sport. The choreography is just another element of that sport. I would also not go so far as to compare wrestling to gymnastics or ballet, either, especially not in terms of choreography.
So, SPOOFE, maybe it does take immense physical and mental ability to perform (poorly, might I add) cheap melodrama. So bad actors are athletes, too? Could someone explain to me who the fuck DOES NOT qualify as an athlete? How about improv actors? Are they not really actors? They’re athletes, though, that seems to be established. I’m really good at eating sunflower seeds. I’m an athlete now, dontcha know.
And what am I not understanding? That acting requires effort? When did I say it didn’t? Just because something requires skill or exertion, its practitioners suddenly become athletes? I’ve laid out my argument as clearly as I can many times before. I also still think my analogy holds. That they don’t have three hours to rehearse every minute of action shows, because the acting is extremely poor. It takes more rehearsing for Waiting for Godot than it does for an episode of Days of Our Lives.
In the end, no matter what wrestlers do, I’ve never seen the point. Nothing anyone has yet said has changed the fact that the entire endeavor looks ridiculous. Since when do people take turns like that in a fight? They don’t look like they’re hitting each other, they look like they’re flailing their arms and stomping a mat. It looks like some bizarre kind of foreplay, not combat. Of course, someone will pile on and say that wrestling is redeemed by the witty dialogue and hysterical theatrics (theatrical hysterics, perhaps?).
You keep saying this as if it’s an objective truth. I think most “real” actors would do horribly in a wrestling setting if they tried to act the way they normally would. It’s a completely different style and philosophy of “acting.” I certainly don’t enjoy the performances of all wrestlers in every federation, but I think some of them do a great job at it for what it is. You think it’s poor. Fine.
The point is this: it’s fun to watch people compete against each other. Especially people you know. When you watch wrestling, you get to know the characters and see them compete against each other. (Yes, we know it’s scripted - please don’t go to that well again.)
That’s the point in a nutshell. If you don’t get it, you don’t get it. Fine.
It may shock you to know that there is more to wrestling than the WWF. Take NOAH, based in Japan, which tries to mimic “real” matches as much as possible. There are many different styles. Lucha libre in Mexico (very fast-paced, high-flying style) looks way more contrived than American wrestling but it’s just as entertaining. If you need to suspend your disbelief, think of it as a different fighting style. I don’t expect perfect science from science fiction and I don’t expect a perfect parallel to the real fighting world from wrestling. I can enjoy both and I don’t expect one to be the other.
To see a Misfits fan turn his nose up at anything for not being artsy, witty or high brow enough is almost surreal. I was going to leave it alone, but I think it really defenestrates any credibility you may have had left once you started redefining “athlete” to serve your purposes. Plus, it’s The Pit. What the hell.
Just for the record - The Misfits were wrestlers for a time in WCW. They weren’t any good at it, but they were there.
And I suppose the average Misfits fan earns over $90,000 per year, has at least three degrees and enjoys one of the widest entertainment scopes known to modern civilization. Riiiiiiiiiiight.
Misfits lyrics #1:
I’m heading down the highway
Sign has three inverted nines
If the lord don’t get me the devil will
But not without a fight
And the average Misfits or Metallica show will be full of them? Riiiiiiiiiiight.
That quote just strikes me as a bit hypocritcal for someone who also said they didn’t like the “objectification” in wrestling. It’s wrong to (allegedly) objectify women who are willingly participating in a fictitious storyline through their own free will and enjoying it, but it’s ok to insult them in the above fashion?
Misfits lyrics #2:
I send my murdergram
To all these monster kids
It comes right back to me
and it’s Signed in their parents’ blood
Misfits lyrics #3:
I got something to say
I killed your baby today
And it doesn’t matter much to me
As long as it’s dead
Well I got something to say
I raped your mother today
And it doesn’t matter much to me
As long as she spread
Misfits lyrics # 4:
Arise Jackie O, Jonathan of Kennedy
Well, arise and be shot down
The dirt’s gonna be your dessert
My cum be your life source
And the only way to get it
Is to suck or fuck
Or be poor and devoid
And masturbate me, masturbate me
Then slurp it from your palm
Like a dry desert soaking up rain
Soaking up sun
I bet this “large slice of educated society” would just love the above bit. How refined, high brow and cultivated it is. I’m surprised that The Misfits don’t do more public radio appearances.
Misfits lyrics #5:
Inside your feeble brain
there’s probably a whore
If you don’t shut your mouth
you’re gonna feel the floor
Misfits lyrics #6:
When they pull out her tongue
Pull off her face, pluck out her eyes
Well, the blood runs cold for
When it drips from the mouth
Be forewarned, be prepared
For a grizzly bloodfeast
So, why is it ok for the Misfits to be all of the things you accuse wrestling of (outside of the physicality), but not ok for wrestling? You’re guilty of liking the same type of stuff that we are - even worse. If you can allow yourself to descend into fandom of material such as this, I don’t think you have much ground to slag wrestling fans for liking something that is violent, purient and/or crass.
(Keep this in mind: I like The Misfits. They’re hardly my favorite band, but I can dig it. My intention in this post is not to insult them or their fans.)
Poorly? YOU try to stay in character while you’re getting the shit beat out of you. Do you have any idea how unlike their real life personas these characters are?
Have you ever thought that these characters are so over-the-top because that’s what gets the ratings? This “poor acting” is exactly what they’re trying to achieve? It is excellent acting, in that they are creating an in-depth, consistent universe that appeals to the fanbase. Wrestling would be absolutely boring if these characters were realistic.
What kind of moron are you? Who ever said something as blatantly idiotic as that? Acting is acting… athletics are athletics. The two are completely different. It’s just that WWF wrestlers happen to be both actors and wrestlers. The two are not mutually exclusive, Einstein.
:rolleyes:
Lifting a 250 person above your head and holding him there for a five-count seems pretty athletic. Falling 20 feet and getting back up to continue a match seems pretty athletic. Are you somehow confusing the word “wrestling” with the word “knitting”?
I’ll say this slowly, because it seems your brain is… well… nonexistent.
HOW FUCKING STUPID ARE YOU?
NOBODY has EVER said in this thread that improv actors are not actors, nor has anybody ever said that improv actors are automatically athletes. Again, they are not mutually exclusive. People - you being the exception, I’m assuming - are capable of being more than one thing at the same time. For example, I can be a police officer and, say, an artist, at the same time.
So, because YOU are incapable of recognizing extreme physical exertion when you see it, that means it’s not there? Right.
Again, I’ll ask this, slowly…
HOW FUCKING STUPID ARE YOU?
It is fiction. It is a show. It is a performance. It is meant to excite and stimulating the audience. It does a damn good job of it.
Next you’ll be asking why Bugs Bunny always dresses up as a girl even when you can always recognize him in that getup.
And sometimes they do. Just like a normal stage production. What, you think the guy that plays Hamlet really dies at the end of the show?
But let me ask you this… if the moves are “fake”, how did Owen Hart die? How did Austin break his neck? How did Foley get his ear torn off? Or was that “faked”, too?
See, there’s this little thing called “suspension of disbelief”. Learn it, love it, live it.
No, we’ll pile on and say that they create a masterful show, week after week, that melds acting and athletics to create a nifty, often-fascinating performance. Yes, some of it is banal, pointless, stupid, and just plain bad… conversely, some of it is downright brilliant or hilarious. Yes, some of it can be slow, boring, and obviously fake… conversely, some of it can be absolutely exciting and thrilling.
Here. I hereby nominate you for the weekly Missing The Point award.
They’re not getting the shit beat out of them, they’re pretending to get the shit beat out of them. Here’s your first clue: when the blows don’t make contact, it doesn’t hurt. Congratulations, you are the first in this thread to fail to grasp the fact that wrestling is fake.
HOW
FUCKING
STUPID
ARE
YOU?
Where, oh fucking where, have I said that wrestling doesn’t require physical exertion? Please, enlighten me. I’ve probably admitted six or seven times throughout the thread that wrestling does require exertion and stamina, but you wouldn’t know that, would you?
HOW
FUCKING
STUPID
ARE
YOU?
But I’d like to go into categories again. Your point that some of the skills in acting and athletics overlap doesn’t make a fucking bit of sense. The physical exertion and stamina required for acting are covered undered ACTOR. Therefore, to classify them additionally as ATHLETES is not only redundant but pointless.
HOW
FUCKING
STUPID
ARE
YOU?
I’m sorry, but this really chaps my ass. I’ll type it in all caps, slowly, for you, because you’re obviously slightly denser than lead. AT NO POINT HAVE I SAID THAT PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING WAS ANYTHING MORE OR LESS THAN A SHOW. In fact, that’s been my entire fucking point. Once again, congratu-fucking-lations.
HOW
FUCKING
STUPID
ARE
YOU?
Let’s see, how did Owen Hart die? Piledriver? Blow to the head? No, he fell out of a goddamned harness. He didn’t die because of physical exertion, he died because of equipment failure. Mistakes are made in stage performances that result in injury. Note please the wide variety of musical talent that learned about pyrotechnics the hard way. Injuries do not an athlete make.
Unless my memory fails me, Hamlet doesn’t climb the turnbuckle and pretend to jump on Laertes’ neck. Some things are easier to fake than others, which it seems more playwrights than professional wrestlers remember. Does the phrase over-the-top mean anything to you?
I won’t ask you to read my previous posts, there’s obviously too much gripping action going on in the wrestling ring for you to spare the time, but those contain the weight of my arguments. This final bit is more personal distaste. You’re late to the game.
Sacrilegium, I listened to the Misfits at a point in my life when I chose music based on the number of people it could piss off. They fit the bill quite nicely then. I am, some might be surprised to know, capable of broad-ranging tastes and, dare I say it, personal improvement. That I still have the t-shirt speaks more to a being a poor student who hates buying new clothes than anything else.
Wrestlers are athletes, but not competitive athletes. It’s a circus, replete with freaky sideshows. Its primary focus is the glorification of sex and violence (much like a lot of TV entertainment). It’s not a competitive sport, but rather a very base form of entertainment (much like a lot of TV) targeted primarily to a young, male audience - though it’s obvious others, including some smart folks, enjoy it as well. In fact, it seems to have gathered a sort of cult following among some intelligentsia, though I myself have no idea why. And while they are “acting”, I don’t think one can compare this to the Theatre in terms of quality. It’s apples and oranges. One seems to be more extroverted, while the other more introspective.
OK, I know getting injured does not equal athletics, this is a seperate point. I think you really need to watch beyond the mat, pay special attention to the interview with mick foley in the lockerroom after his match with the rock. Then I’d like you to call up Mick Foley and ask him how he “pretended” to get a 4 inch gash in his fucking head. Then call Steve Austin and discuss how much fun it was to pretend that botched owen hart pilldriver caused him to lose feeling in his extremities. After that maybe you should talk to triple H about tearing a leg muscle and finishing the match. Finally, sit down and have a long talk with Sabu about the countless scars covering his entire body. Wrestling is Choreographed, but it’s not as fake as you think.
Trucido, let us see if your thinking is too far out on who is an athlete and who is not. Are Jet Li, Michelle Yeung, Zhang Ziyi and Jackie Chan athletes? If not, then why not?
I’m kinda giving up on Trucido, as he’s either arguing in bad faith, or he’s extremely dense. I’ll just touch this little gem:
Have you ever watched wrestling? Did you ever see Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho give each other those chops? OK, they’re not exactly punches, or anything, but I promise you that you’d be running home crying if Chris Benoit his you with one single such chop. You’d probably be crippled for life if Vader hit you with a powerbomb.
Someone here is in desparate need of reading Foley’s book. There’s an amusing anecdote in there about the whole “stomping the mat” thing. Yes, it happens. Just not as much as you’re implying.
Oh, and you might want to rent some old UWF-I tapes (from Japan). If you see one single mat-stomp in there, I’ll send you a million bucks. What you will see is a lot of kicking, and open-hand striking.
Ah, yes. And I forgot Foley. Ummm… yeah. Those chair shots that split him wide open at the Royal Rumble in his match with The Rock were fake. Ummm… yeah.
That was sarcasm. The guy even suffered some mild brain damage after that match.
Hey, Trucido, BTW, SPOOFE is the type of guy who can walk into a roomful of flamers, and come out unscarred. I am pretty good at flaming contests myself, and I know better than flaming him. Start a flame war with him, and you autolose. Quit while you still have only first degree burns.
I love this “wrestling fans are blue collar blah blah blah” argument. Aside from being an elitist and stupid comment, it’s also quite wrong. Firstly, see this thread. Are you saying that all the people in this thread who are saying that they watch wrestling are uneducated blue-collar types? Ah, I see. We’re the exceptions. OK. What about the posters at the http://www.deathvalleydriver.com message boards? Sure, there are a few idiots there. However, I invite you to check it out. Notice all the other GOOD posters? There are quite a few other message boards like that one as well. Oh, I see, you wish to change your statement to “Well, all wrestling fans WITHOUT INTERNET ACCESS are uneducated blue-collar workers.” OK… Gotcha.
Actually, the http://www.wrestlingclassics.com people are STILL pissed at Gagne for the closing years of the AWA. Nobody has suggested Jacob and the angel was a work, YET. http://www.kayfabememories.com is another good site dedicated to premodern wrestling.
Another site to check out is http://www.puroresu.com , one of the best wrestling history resources online.
So what? Do you know how to use a dictionary? If a word has three definitions, any one of those definitions are qualified as an acceptable usage of the word.
To see the other side of that logic, read, if you will, the second definition.
Therefore, “[a]ny one trained to contend in exercises requiring great physical agility and strength” is an athlete.
A professional wrestler is an athlete.
Ever watch wrestling? Try falling off a 20 foot cage onto 1 inch of foam, try getting your back slapped with a folding chair, or perhaps try getting your head hit with one (if you haven’t already). Furthermore, try getting up after that and continue performing. Sure, it’s a performance, but it still takes great strength and stamina to accomplish such tasks, and therefore, according to the English definition, a professional wrestler is an athlete.
Is your computer monitor a mirror?
One doesn’t care when you still fail to make the connection between words and definitions.
Definition of actor:
Apparently, it is not covered under “actor.” I am not disagreeing that certain actors require great stamina, strength, and agility, but nonetheless an actor is not necessarily an athlete. Therefore, it is not redundant to classify actors who are athletes as such.
Strength and stamina do, and being able to get up after countless injuries requires strength and stamina.
Now, is the definition of athlete broad? Yes. Is it wrong? Unless you can provide a more reputable source that defines English words other than a reputable English dictionary, it is not.
If, however, you were specific and said that professional wrestlers are not competitive athletes, I am pretty sure everyone here would agree with you.
