Can you help me refute my Creationist/ID friend (re: DNA, amino acids, etc.)

My knowledge of DNA is limited to a vague memory of a bunch of G, T, C, A, and U things connected in bigger staircase-looking things. Consequently, talkorigins.net has been of no help whatsoever, since they seem to presume that you took 4 years of biology in college and all their articles are basically indecipherable to non-scientists.

My friend’s dad is one of those intelligent-design (ID) proponents who goes around debating against people on the other side. So my friend apparently got this argument from him which goes roughly as follows, sorry if I’m misremembering it because alot of the terms I was unfamiliar with:

He claims that DNA is necessary to build enzymes and that enzymes are necessary to build DNA, so that neither could exist without the other. He says that DNA builds enzymes using something called a “polymerase” that drags the “nucleotides” together, and that enzymes can’t form without this process. He then says that DNA is built by something called “messenger RNA” that tells enzymes what to do and how to make the DNA.

I may have the specifics wrong, it’s like trying to remember the highlights of a paragraph someone recited to you in a foreign language and then relate the substance of the paragraph to someone else. The basic gist of his argument is that DNA can’t be built without enzymes or amino acids or something like that, and vice versa. I’m interested in learning what the refutation of this argument is, I’m sure there’s one floating around.

So if anyone can help me out, or give me a link to a site other than the hypertechnical and utterly useless talkorigins.net, I’d appreciate it.

(Posted in GD just in case it were to turn into an argument.)

If I recall correctly, mRNA is created from DNA and is transcribed to create amino acids, which then combine to form proteins. Enzymes are a totally seperate thing (polymerase being an enzyme that is used to break down the bonds that holds the “rungs” in DNA together), thus enzymes can exist independantly from DNA.

I won’t bother trying to clarify the question, but the answer is this:

It appears that the earliest molecules involved in this whole type of process were probably RNA molecules, which have the handy feature of being able to function both as genetic material (like DNA) and as catalysts (like proteins). Look up ribozymes for more information.

Over time, those two functions were gradually taken up by DNA and proteins, specifically, with RNA serving as an intermediate.

Um, I think you’ll have to clarify that one. How did DNA and proteins take over those functions? That is, what steps did they undergo as they assumed those roles, and how do we know that they did?

I’m being serious here; after all, that’s the sort of question which an alert Intelligent Design-ist would ask of you. If we don’t know how it happened, and if we don’t have direct evidence of these intermediate steps, then we can’t really claim that it happened that way.

In addition, RNA rather than DNA is functioning, right today, as the carrier of the genetic code in some viruses. This makes entirely feasible the idea of an RNA world in the beginning.

Britannica has this: “[RNA] abbreviation of Ribonucleic Acid, complex compound of high molecular weight that functions in cellular protein synthesis and replaces DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) as a carrier of genetic codes in some viruses.”

OK, so how is RNA built, what does it come from and how is it formed?

—OP: The basic gist of his argument is that DNA can’t be built without enzymes or amino acids or something like that, and vice versa.—
—JThunder: If we don’t know how it happened, and if we don’t have direct evidence of these intermediate steps, then we can’t really claim that it happened that way.—

Seems like the IDer is the one, in this case, that is making a claim. It’s a pretty common one too. I don’t have the expertise in chemistry and biology to answer this question in terms of evidence, but a chicken/egg-type charge (i.e., this can’t have happened without divine intervention/ is irreducible complexity) is a pretty darn weak one strictly on principle. Just because two things can’t operate without each other now to serve the particular purpose they serve now does not demonstrate that the current state of affairs could not have been reached via sequential steps from far simpler forms: which is essentially the ID argument here.

Difficult question but beside the point here. The question before the house concerns the “chicken and egg” problem as described in the OP - “He claims that DNA is necessary to build enzymes and that enzymes are necessary to build DNA…”

I’m far from all that knowledgeable about this, but the book Vital Dust by Novel Laureate Christian de Duve goes into the various possiblities in answer to your question in some detail. The book is a difficult read for the non-specialist but I think it is worth the effort for those who are interested in the subject.

The book is doubtless available through a library and bookstores like Amazon have it for sale.

To be fair though, the IDer is arguing from a position of strength. He doesn’t have to prove that it’s absolutely impossible that any mechanism for simultaneously producing DNA and enzymes exists. Rather, he can emphasize that they are extremely interdependent, and argue that such a mechanism is naturalistically improbable.

And that’s why I think I think explanations like “Over time, those functions were gradually assumed by DNA and proteins” to be unsatisfying. Without details – specifics of how this happened – it amounts to saying “We know it must have happened this way because, well, it can’t have been intelligent design.” I think that a more compelling argument is in order.

I don’t think that the IDer is arguing from any “position of strength.” What his argument boils down to is, “You can’t explain right now how your naturalistic system works. Ergo, my supernatural explanation must be right.”

Balderdash!

We don’t know exactly. This is all still a work in progress. We can speculate, though. DNA is a much more stable molecule than RNA, so if, say, a postulated ribozyme polymerase “mutated” (if the word can really be applied here - you get the idea) to a form that created DNA rather than RNA, there would be a big advantage right there. Functional ribozymes could still be copied off the DNA template, much like RNA is copied from DNA now. The new DNA molecule would survive longer, conferring a selective advantage. That change is really a rather small step. The only difference between a ribonucleotide and a deoxyribonucleotide is one oxygen aton.

The adoption of proteins is more difficult to visualize. I’d WAG that there would have been more intermediate steps in that conversion. I don’t even feel like I could speculate there - it’s beyond me.

But the point is, that although we don’t know exactly how these things happened, they’re hardly impossible. Read “At Home in the Universe” by Stuart Kauffman, which explains why some of these seemingly wildly improbable coincidences are really much more likely than they appear on the surface.

—To be fair though, the IDer is arguing from a position of strength.—

It all depends on what he’s arguing. If he’s arguing “you don’t know exactly how DNA/enzymes could have come to be!” then I agree: I dunno (though someone might). But he seems willing to draw a conclusion from this: as you yourself imply: “Rather, he can emphasize that they are extremely interdependent, and argue that such a mechanism is naturalistically improbable.”

Such an argument would be unsupported. Interdepedance doesn’t tell us anything about anything’s probability. You can’t do probability looking backwards like that. And you certainly can’t judge probability prior to knowing what specific process you are talking about: and we don’t.

What we can talk about is plausibility. And we do know that interdepedance now says nothing about plausibility of sequential steps leading to that interdepedance.

—Without details – specifics of how this happened – it amounts to saying “We know it must have happened this way because, well, it can’t have been intelligent design.” I think that a more compelling argument is in order.—

I agree with the last part: and that’s hopefully exactly what people are studying right at this moment. But the first part is bull. The presumption that just because we don’t know one piece of process… and thus only an intelligent designer is plausible… that’s a non-starter. You can posit an intelligent designer when you have nailed down good evidence of design being done by a certain process: not simply ignorance of how anything was done. The burden of proof cannot be “tell me the exact process!” for one side and “no need to supply a process, just speculate on what it could be named!” for the other.

Spend more than fifteen minutes on the topic of Intelligent Design or any of the other schools of creationist thought, and it becomes evident that most of their arguments hinge on the following tired old fallacy: “if your scientific explanation for X isn’t 100% complete and accurate, then X must be due to divine intervention”.

Dig deep enough at a creationist argument, and you will inevitably find that it is built on false premises and/or fallacies. That’s why it is so tedious to debate these guys. There’s no actual need to scrutinize the process of DNA development in this case, because your friend’s father doesn’t have a valid argument with or without it.

RexDart, it’s also worth mentioning that, if the discussion started off being about biological evolution, then the discussion of the origin of life itself is a dviersion, quite possibly a deliberate one.

AFAIK, Abiogenesis is still pretty shaky in scientific terms, but as others have said, inability to explain something doesn’t give us carte blanche to insert our favourite unfalsifiable myth instead.

First off, let me say that the book Seven Clues to the Origin of Life addresses your question very directly, and I think is written on a level any layman can understand. (Plus, it raised the question of Irreducible Complexity long before Behe- and it was written by an evolutionist!)
Here’s my abiogenesis FAQ (to be precise, a rough draft.) It talks in some detail about how the genetic code originated in the RNA world. If you are completely unfamiliar with DNA, proteins, and the genetic code, you’ll want to read the first few sections of my molecular genetics FAQ:

http://psyche11.home.mindspring.com/ben/WritingIndex.htm
ABIOGENESIS MINI-FAQ

Creationists are fond of attacking the idea of abiogenesis. No matter how many times you tell them that abiogenesis is a separate issue from evolution, they throw it in the face of evolutionists, usually with some sneers about “if you can explain that, there’s a Nobel Prize waiting for you.” Frequently you hear them say that the question of the origin of life (and in particular the origin of the genetic code) is so difficult that mainstream scientific journals contain a “thundering silence” on the issue. Of course, this is all nonsense. Aside from the fact that the creationists are using a classic God-of-the-Gaps argument, there’s plenty of fascinating work being done on a variety of issues relating to abiogenesis, and I’ve written this FAQ to present some of this work to laymen.

This FAQ is not meant to be comprehensive. There are a large number of issues relating to abiogenesis, and I’m simply not familiar with them all. For example, many scientists are working on the question of what chemical conditions are necessary to produce the basic building blocks of life. In this FAQ I’m not going to answer the chemical questions, and instead I will try to address some of the informational questions. Moreover, I am only going to address the informational questions in broad outline, without detailing some of the debates over the precise details (if you’re curious, you can read the papers in the bibliography.) The real questions that creationists are demanding answers to are these: how did those building blocks organize themselves into the first living organism? If the genetic code is irreducibly complex, how could it evolve? I don’t expect my presentation of the answers to these questions to convince any creationists, but that’s not the point. All I want to do is to show that the questions aren’t so impossible as creationists would have us believe, and I hope to teach you some interesting stuff along the way.

The RNA world

In modern organisms, DNA stores genetic information which directs the synthesis of protein machines, which carry out the work of the cell by catalyzing chemical reactions (for example, digesting food, copying DNA, and so forth.) As first blush, this system is irreducibly complex: the DNA can’t do anything without proteins, and the cell doesn’t know how to make proteins without the information in DNA. How could such a system evolve?

In 1986 Walter Gilbert suggested that the answer might lie with RNA. RNA is a DNA-like molecule that is heavily involved in the steps by which the information in DNA is used to make proteins. Gilbert suggested that at an early stage in the history of life, the machinery of life was entirely made of RNA, which served both to store information (like DNA) and to do work (like proteins.) Later, the RNA lifeforms evolved the ability to use DNA for information storage and proteins for catalysis. This idea was vindicated when Thomas Cech and Sidney Altman discovered that RNA molecules can, in fact, catalyze reactions just like proteins can. For this work, they won the 1989 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. (See? The creationists were right- there really are Nobel prizes available for scientists who work on abiogenesis!)

RNA is, as I said, used heavily in protein synthesis. First, the information in the DNA is copied to RNA. This “messenger RNA” is then sent to the RNA-rich ribosome, which assembles amino acids into the protein whose sequence is encoded in the messenger RNA. The ribosome grabs onto the amino acids by RNA handles called “transfer RNA.” (For a fuller explanation, see my molecular genetics FAQ xxx.) The parts of the ribosome that are directly involved in the chemical reactions that link the amino acids together are made of RNA, and the RNA forms a “catalytic triad” that mimics the triad found in digestive enzymes that catalyze similar reactions. The proteins in the ribosome have been compared to “mortar” that holds the RNA “bricks” together: the RNA does the real work, and the proteins just make the RNA more stable. In fact, the ribosome retains much of its ability to synthesise proteins even if you strip away all the ribosomal proteins, leaving behind pure RNA. The fact that the protein-synthesizing machinery is so heavily built of RNA lends support to the idea that RNA-based lifeforms gradually gained the ability to manipulate amino acids and link them together to make proteins. Moreover, other “molecular fossils” of the RNA world can be found in our biochemistry. For example, our cells store energy in the form of ATP, which is one of the components of RNA. Other biomolecules have a “handle” of ribose, another component of RNA, which they use to interact with proteins.

How did these first, RNA-based lifeforms come to be? Ultimately, all one needs for life to begin is a molecule of RNA that can replicate itself, or a small number of RNAs (say, three or four) that form a self-replicating system. Once that RNA starts replicating, it can mutate, which means that it can evolve into more complicated RNA-replicating systems which contain more and more different RNAs with specialized functions. There’s nothing particularly inconceivable about the idea that the initial, self-replicating RNA could come to be. For example, suppose that if you made an RNA at random, there’s a one in a billion chance that the RNA will be able to self-replicate. If the primordial ocean contains (just for the sake of argument) a trillion random RNA molecules, then a thousand of them will be able to self-replicate! Of course, in reality less than one in a billion RNA molecules will have that ability. On the other hand, the number of random RNA molecules available might be quite large: if you hold up a pin against the background of the night sky, the head of that pin blots out thousands of galaxies, each containing trillions of stars. (Mind you, my estimate of “thousands” is probably far too conservative.) How many planets are there on which the conditions are right for forming random RNA molecules? Scientists are currently trying to put more specific numbers on this argument. First, they are trying to find an RNA molecule that can replicate itself (RNA molecules have already been found which can replicate other RNA’s.) Once they do this, they will be able to determine which parts of the RNA are critical to its function, and thus they can calculate what percentage of random RNA molecules will have the same function. Secondly, scientists are trying to find out roughly how many planets have the right conditions for these processes to take place.

Amino acids enter the scene

How did this RNA world gain the ability to synthesise proteins? It is thought that the first interactions between RNA and amino acids came about when RNA enzymes (or “ribozymes”) evolved the ability to use amino acids as cofactors. Cofactors are molecules that proteins use to enhance their chemical abilities. For example, hemoglobin uses a heme cofactor to bind oxygen more efficiently than amino acids alone could. In an RNA world, the diverse chemical functionalities of amino acids would make amino acids attractive cofactors. Ribozymes thus evolved which had the ability to bind to amino acids and use them in chemical reactions. (Even today, some ribozymes still use amino acids as cofactors.)

However, the loops of RNA which are needed for a ribozyme to recognize and bind a particular amino acid are complicated, and it’s inefficient for each ribozyme to have to independently evolve such structures. On the other hand, it’s easy for one RNA loop to recognize another. The ribozyme lifeforms thus evolved a system by which some ribozymes would recognize particular amino acids and attach themselves as “handles” to individual amino acid molecules. Other ribozymes could then simply evolve a short stretch of sequence that would bind to the handle, and they would thereby be able to snag an amino acid molecule for use as a cofactor. These ribozyme handles ultimately evolved into the transfer RNAs which serve as handles for amino acids during protein synthesis.

(I should mention that there are a number of differing opinions on the details of this step. Some scientists follow the model I describe above, whereas others argue that instead of binding individual amino acids, the ribozyme handles bound chains composed of one type of amino acid repeated over and over. Some scientists also believe that the association of particular amino acids with particular handles- and therefore with particular codons in the modern genetic code- is entirely arbitrary, whereas others believe that the codon assignments are the result of a physical affinity between the particular amino acid and an RNA handle containing its anticodon. Currently, experiments are underway to determine which of these views is correct. Again, if you want more details, see the papers in the bibliography.)

Over time, ribozymes evolved which could use two or more amino acid cofactors for the same reaction. As time went on, the RNA parts of the ribozymes started to shrink as they waned in importance, while more and more cofactors were added. Meanwhile, ribozymes evolved which could link these amino acids into short chains, perhaps to enhance the stability of the enzyme. Ultimately, most ribozymes became nothing more than recognition sequences that could grab onto the appropriate RNA handles and bring together the right combination of amino acids for a job; these ribozymes became our modern messenger RNA. The handles became transfer RNA, while the ribozymes that linked the amino acids together became ribosomes.

First off, let me say that the book Seven Clues to the Origin of Life addresses your question very directly, and I think is written on a level any layman can understand. (Plus, it raised the question of Irreducible Complexity long before Behe- and it was written by an evolutionist!)
Here’s my abiogenesis FAQ (to be precise, a rough draft.) It talks in some detail about how the genetic code originated in the RNA world. If you are completely unfamiliar with DNA, proteins, and the genetic code, you’ll want to read the first few sections of my molecular genetics FAQ:

http://psyche11.home.mindspring.com/ben/WritingIndex.htm
ABIOGENESIS MINI-FAQ

Creationists are fond of attacking the idea of abiogenesis. No matter how many times you tell them that abiogenesis is a separate issue from evolution, they throw it in the face of evolutionists, usually with some sneers about “if you can explain that, there’s a Nobel Prize waiting for you.” Frequently you hear them say that the question of the origin of life (and in particular the origin of the genetic code) is so difficult that mainstream scientific journals contain a “thundering silence” on the issue. Of course, this is all nonsense. Aside from the fact that the creationists are using a classic God-of-the-Gaps argument, there’s plenty of fascinating work being done on a variety of issues relating to abiogenesis, and I’ve written this FAQ to present some of this work to laymen.

This FAQ is not meant to be comprehensive. There are a large number of issues relating to abiogenesis, and I’m simply not familiar with them all. For example, many scientists are working on the question of what chemical conditions are necessary to produce the basic building blocks of life. In this FAQ I’m not going to answer the chemical questions, and instead I will try to address some of the informational questions. Moreover, I am only going to address the informational questions in broad outline, without detailing some of the debates over the precise details (if you’re curious, you can read the papers in the bibliography.) The real questions that creationists are demanding answers to are these: how did those building blocks organize themselves into the first living organism? If the genetic code is irreducibly complex, how could it evolve? I don’t expect my presentation of the answers to these questions to convince any creationists, but that’s not the point. All I want to do is to show that the questions aren’t so impossible as creationists would have us believe, and I hope to teach you some interesting stuff along the way.

The RNA world

In modern organisms, DNA stores genetic information which directs the synthesis of protein machines, which carry out the work of the cell by catalyzing chemical reactions (for example, digesting food, copying DNA, and so forth.) As first blush, this system is irreducibly complex: the DNA can’t do anything without proteins, and the cell doesn’t know how to make proteins without the information in DNA. How could such a system evolve?

In 1986 Walter Gilbert suggested that the answer might lie with RNA. RNA is a DNA-like molecule that is heavily involved in the steps by which the information in DNA is used to make proteins. Gilbert suggested that at an early stage in the history of life, the machinery of life was entirely made of RNA, which served both to store information (like DNA) and to do work (like proteins.) Later, the RNA lifeforms evolved the ability to use DNA for information storage and proteins for catalysis. This idea was vindicated when Thomas Cech and Sidney Altman discovered that RNA molecules can, in fact, catalyze reactions just like proteins can. For this work, they won the 1989 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. (See? The creationists were right- there really are Nobel prizes available for scientists who work on abiogenesis!)

RNA is, as I said, used heavily in protein synthesis. First, the information in the DNA is copied to RNA. This “messenger RNA” is then sent to the RNA-rich ribosome, which assembles amino acids into the protein whose sequence is encoded in the messenger RNA. The ribosome grabs onto the amino acids by RNA handles called “transfer RNA.” (For a fuller explanation, see my molecular genetics FAQ xxx.) The parts of the ribosome that are directly involved in the chemical reactions that link the amino acids together are made of RNA, and the RNA forms a “catalytic triad” that mimics the triad found in digestive enzymes that catalyze similar reactions. The proteins in the ribosome have been compared to “mortar” that holds the RNA “bricks” together: the RNA does the real work, and the proteins just make the RNA more stable. In fact, the ribosome retains much of its ability to synthesise proteins even if you strip away all the ribosomal proteins, leaving behind pure RNA. The fact that the protein-synthesizing machinery is so heavily built of RNA lends support to the idea that RNA-based lifeforms gradually gained the ability to manipulate amino acids and link them together to make proteins. Moreover, other “molecular fossils” of the RNA world can be found in our biochemistry. For example, our cells store energy in the form of ATP, which is one of the components of RNA. Other biomolecules have a “handle” of ribose, another component of RNA, which they use to interact with proteins.

How did these first, RNA-based lifeforms come to be? Ultimately, all one needs for life to begin is a molecule of RNA that can replicate itself, or a small number of RNAs (say, three or four) that form a self-replicating system. Once that RNA starts replicating, it can mutate, which means that it can evolve into more complicated RNA-replicating systems which contain more and more different RNAs with specialized functions. There’s nothing particularly inconceivable about the idea that the initial, self-replicating RNA could come to be. For example, suppose that if you made an RNA at random, there’s a one in a billion chance that the RNA will be able to self-replicate. If the primordial ocean contains (just for the sake of argument) a trillion random RNA molecules, then a thousand of them will be able to self-replicate! Of course, in reality less than one in a billion RNA molecules will have that ability. On the other hand, the number of random RNA molecules available might be quite large: if you hold up a pin against the background of the night sky, the head of that pin blots out thousands of galaxies, each containing trillions of stars. (Mind you, my estimate of “thousands” is probably far too conservative.) How many planets are there on which the conditions are right for forming random RNA molecules? Scientists are currently trying to put more specific numbers on this argument. First, they are trying to find an RNA molecule that can replicate itself (RNA molecules have already been found which can replicate other RNA’s.) Once they do this, they will be able to determine which parts of the RNA are critical to its function, and thus they can calculate what percentage of random RNA molecules will have the same function. Secondly, scientists are trying to find out roughly how many planets have the right conditions for these processes to take place.

Amino acids enter the scene

How did this RNA world gain the ability to synthesise proteins? It is thought that the first interactions between RNA and amino acids came about when RNA enzymes (or “ribozymes”) evolved the ability to use amino acids as cofactors. Cofactors are molecules that proteins use to enhance their chemical abilities. For example, hemoglobin uses a heme cofactor to bind oxygen more efficiently than amino acids alone could. In an RNA world, the diverse chemical functionalities of amino acids would make amino acids attractive cofactors. Ribozymes thus evolved which had the ability to bind to amino acids and use them in chemical reactions. (Even today, some ribozymes still use amino acids as cofactors.)

However, the loops of RNA which are needed for a ribozyme to recognize and bind a particular amino acid are complicated, and it’s inefficient for each ribozyme to have to independently evolve such structures. On the other hand, it’s easy for one RNA loop to recognize another. The ribozyme lifeforms thus evolved a system by which some ribozymes would recognize particular amino acids and attach themselves as “handles” to individual amino acid molecules. Other ribozymes could then simply evolve a short stretch of sequence that would bind to the handle, and they would thereby be able to snag an amino acid molecule for use as a cofactor. These ribozyme handles ultimately evolved into the transfer RNAs which serve as handles for amino acids during protein synthesis.

(I should mention that there are a number of differing opinions on the details of this step. Some scientists follow the model I describe above, whereas others argue that instead of binding individual amino acids, the ribozyme handles bound chains composed of one type of amino acid repeated over and over. Some scientists also believe that the association of particular amino acids with particular handles- and therefore with particular codons in the modern genetic code- is entirely arbitrary, whereas others believe that the codon assignments are the result of a physical affinity between the particular amino acid and an RNA handle containing its anticodon. Currently, experiments are underway to determine which of these views is correct. Again, if you want more details, see the papers in the bibliography.)

Over time, ribozymes evolved which could use two or more amino acid cofactors for the same reaction. As time went on, the RNA parts of the ribozymes started to shrink as they waned in importance, while more and more cofactors were added. Meanwhile, ribozymes evolved which could link these amino acids into short chains, perhaps to enhance the stability of the enzyme. Ultimately, most ribozymes became nothing more than recognition sequences that could grab onto the appropriate RNA handles and bring together the right combination of amino acids for a job; these ribozymes became our modern messenger RNA. The handles became transfer RNA, while the ribozymes that linked the amino acids together became ribosomes.

Er, no. Enzymes are proteins (but not all proteins are enzymes). The making of proteins is dictated by DNA.

Ugh- sorry about the double post…

Anyway, ProjectOmega, to get the straight scoop on the relationship between DNA and proteins, read my molecular genetics FAQ. Also, I should point out that enzymes are a kind of protein.

You also may want to check Paradigms Lost by John Casti. It’s a bit dated, but he goes into several theories how the origin of life started.

Thanks for the info everyone, I’ll have to peruse it in more depth as I have more time. On the simple point, thanks for pointing out the distinction between abiogenesis and evolution, which I knew were quite different things but couldn’t seem to think of making that distinction when I was discussing this with my friend. He did indeed shift the focus from evolution to abiogenesis, and I totally missed the switch.

Thanks again for all the good information!! I love this board, I can ponder a question and the answers are just a few keyboard clicks away :slight_smile: