I have 2 kids. Kid one has always had impeccable integrity…he has always seemed to innately know that lying, cheating and stealing are wrong. He has a very strong conscience and sense of compassion and is always aware of how his words and actions will affect others. We chalked it up to our excellent parenting skills …until kid #2 arrived on the scene.
Kid #2 is the complete opposite and I am trying to figure out how to turn her around. She has always been a child who tries to get around the rules, even though she knows there will always be consequences . She can look you right in the eye and lie through her teeth and never seems to have remorse.She is 5 btw and has always been like this.
Yesterday’s issue: I asked each child to collect 5 toys that they no longer use, so we could donate them. I explained to them how some children have nothing and since they have so much they should share. Kid 1 practically had tears in his eyes as he collected several of his nicest toys to give away. Kid 2 was a total pain in the ass about the whole thing and didn’t want to part with anything. After much pressure, she produced 5 broken toys (or pieces of toys). After I rejected those and lectured her about giving, she begrudgingly produced 5 little used toys that were in good shape, but she’s been bitter ever since. And last week, she stole a chocolate Santa off the gifts for our adopt-a-family, then denied eating it…in spite of the chocolate all over her face.
I am worried about her future. What can I do to make her have more integrity? FWIW she is very well behaved, loving and sweet, and has good manners, but truly seems to lack compassion and remorse. What can I do?
First of all, kudos to you for being concerned about this and trying to guide your child in the right direction. The world would be a much better place if more parents were as conscienscious.
I don’t have any children myself, but worked with large numbers of them for many years, so I guess I can have an opinion here. Yes, it really helps if a strong sense of conscience and compassion is present from the get-go, but I really think it can be taught and developed…and it sounds like you are really trying to do that with her.
While 5 is not too early by any means, I think you will probably see more progress when she gets old enough to reason a little and can see the world in terms that are more other-directed rather than self-directed.
While it’s inportant for her to realize that actions have consequences, I think it’s probably even more important to work on developing internal motivation for doing the right thing and letting her experience the emotional rewards of doing so.
Hope that wasn’t too rambling, but basically I applaud your concern for her and think you are on the right track with what you’re trying to do.
I think for some people there is no alternative to firm boundaries with severe consequences for crossing them, in the form of punishment. Punishment doesn’t have to be physical (though I’m of the school of thought that says the occasional good smack when deserved doesn’t do anyone any harm), but it should be something that will make her think twice about doing it again.
How are you punishing her when she tells a blatant lie to you?
I agree with bluecanary. Be sure to follow through with your method of punishment, be consistent and persistent.
IMO many parents try to be “friends” with their children. I don’t believe that this is a parent’s primary responsiblity. You are there to teach this person to navigate the world. Actions and consequences are fundamental.
As a child I was like your 5yo. But ultimately I learned/was taught that doing the right thing is really the ultimate “having it my own way”.
Thanks for your reply. The reason I am so concerned is that at 5 (and way before) kid 1 saw the world in terms that were other-directed, whereas #2 is still completely egocentric. And she truly seems to lack any kind of compassion and remorse…except for with animals. SHe has tremendous compassion for animals, but seems to have none at all for humans. She even came right out and said she didn’t care about the kids who didn’t have any toys. This may not be relevant, but she has never liked dolls. She loves stuffed animals and treats them like babies, but hates dolls of any kind, which I’ve always found peculiar.
We use time outs and loss of privileges as punishment. Every book I have read says the key to changing behavior is consistent discipline and I have been very consistent.
She does go to pre-K 3 hours a day and I think she gets away with a lot more there. She is a very outgoing charming kid, and many adults can be snowed by her. So her teachers don’t see her as having a problem, but we do.
Also after getting busted and punished for some infraction, she seems to try to find ways to avoid getting caught, rather than learn to change her bad behavior. I don’t want to overreact and I realize she is only 5, but I want to nip this in the bud.
Okay this gives me some hope. Do you remember how old you were when your conscience kicked in?
I was like kid 1 and was born with it, so I am really struggling to understand kid 2. She also (at the tender age of 5) is very naturally skilled at manipulating people. Her teachers think she is sweetest thing in the world (and she CAN be) but she can also be a manipulative con artist.
Hmmm. From what you describe, I think the missing key is actually empathy.
Kid #1 has it in spades. He can put himself in another person’s shoes and experience what they’re experiencing. Kid #2 can’t.
This is a WAG, but would it help to give her concrete examples of those people and make it clear that her behavior harms them? Especially if, for instance, she had to stand there as you handed your adopt-a-family a new chocolate Santa and explain you’re very sorry, but Kid #2 took the first one and ate it, knowing it was for them.
Maybe to appreciate how much it sucks to have no toys, she needs to go without for a while. Then, after a while, Kid #1 could show her how much difference compassion makes.
As a teacher, I’m not above using emotional manipulation when logical argument doesn’t get through to a kid. The ability to empathize and show compassion is not a luxury. It is a psychological necessity to living in a society. Kudos to you for working on it now.
Now please don’t take this the wrong way, but I have a little pet theory about children. Children are an amalgam of the psyches of the parents. Sometimes you get one that gets your best features and sometimes one that gets your worst features. You can actually make an impression on your child by figuring out what subtle cues she is interpreting from you. Somehow somewhere this child is yours and you are the source of who she is on every level. This doesn’t mean that you lack integrity or your SO does, it’s not quite that simple, but somewhere there are pieces that fit together just so in your relationship with her. Figuring out your own wiring and changing it can change others around you without a discernible action on your part to affect those outside of you. It sounds mystical but it’s more just about the subtle cues that are in our body language in the words we choose when we speak, everything.
Also, she might need more of a sense of consequences outside of your displeasure, or an appeal to her compassion. Maybe she is operating from pure rational self-interest. So you need to come up with a practical demonstration as to why helping others is beneficial to her. Maybe she thinks your rules are arbitrary and thinks your implementation of them is simply you behaving just as she does, in a selfish way because she doesn’t comprehend the larger picture. So when she eats the adopt a family chocolate she sees it as a battle with you, the other family simply does not exist. Somehow you have to take the focus off of you as the stifler of getting what she wants and figure out a way to show her that the world will smack her with consequences for her actions.
In my case it was when I started experiencing real adult consequences to my adult actions. In reteospect I wish I had been disciplined more as a child so I could have understood that sooner. Even if I would have hated my mother as a child for it (single parent home) I would respect her now. As it stands, my life is pretty good by my own volition, but I don’t respect my mother. Pardon my french, but even if she thinks you are an asshole now, it will be worth it when she has that moment later in life where she says “wow, he was just teaching me those things so I could have a better life.”
My stepdaughter (known her since she was six; she’s now nine) seems to be outgrowing the two problems you’ve described. She is only with us part of the year, but here’s is what we’ve done when she’s been with us.
Regarding empathy, her area of empathy was also animals…so we have had her sort out old towels & sheets to donate to local animal shelters (they need them for the cages, especially in winter). I would encourage you to start with things like this and branch out. Kids that young can have a tough time conceptualizing outside their immediate sphere of familiarity–I think the “poor animal” thing is easier to understand because kids are exposed it to through books, tv, etc.
We did a lot of talking about people who are homeless or impoverished, as we live near DC. This year, we picked a kid to get gifts off of one of the “angel trees”, and she was enthused about picking out gifts for a girl her own age. Next year,we plan to take her to help sort canned goods at the food bank and/or do a stream cleanup, as she is starting to be aware of environmental issues.
For lying, we have emphasized time and time again that lying starts out little and turns big. Kiddo did some of the lying that you mentioned above (“I didn’t eat that chocolate!”) but was also fond of story-telling to get attention; for example, telling me her other mommy let her watch Sex and the City. We basically called her on it every time we thought she was lying. When she protested she was telling the truth, we pointed out to her that we couldn’t always tell. We’ve also reassured her that she can tell us the truth; she doesn’t need to make up stuff to get attention.
Over brunch my wife and I discussed this and she had some interesting insights.
She was an only child and her Mother would force her to give things away sort of randomly, and this upset her notion of organization within her own space.
Maybe the child is acting like this as an attempt to differentiate herself from the OLDER brother who she is always being compared to and found wanting.
The older child never had to stake a claim to territory, he was born into it and had an identity formed on his own without having to fight for claim.
Giving their toys away doesn’t really teach compassion if they don’t grok the lesson to begin with. You are saying, “These toys are now to be taken away from you to be <insert unfathomable arbitrary abstract concept here>.”
I know this is judging based on a small bit of info, but it really seems like YOU don’t have much empathy for HER. That if you became more empathetic to her, she would become more empathetic as a result. This doesn’t mean coddling in any respect, just you expanding your emotional range to encompass hers.
BTW, manipulative children are EXTREMELY empathetic, you have to be to manipulate. People often confuse empathy with sympathy or compassion. Just because I know what you are feeling and can comprehend it doesn’t mean I care.
I was a similar child, and I think I started reforming around 11-12.
I dunno if it was a deficiency or what, but it seemed like I had to come by morality the hard way, by seeing the consequences of different actions and finally learning that a life constructed on lies and deceit was no life at all…but I was like that with all things-I spent my first decade trying to disprove gravity.
Think of child 1 as a theoretical physicist who can see the world and incorporate your teachings and arrive at a satisfactory conclusion, and child 2 as an experimenter won’t take his colleague’s word for anything, who has to see things from beginning to end, explicitly, and probably multiple times to understand them.
As others have said, consistent discipline is your best weapon in this fight. And the suggestions booklover has put forth would probably quicken the process.
Have you tried asking her, “How would you feel?” As in, “How would you feel if someone gave you broken toys for Christmas?” or “How would you feel if you didn’t have enough food to eat?” Not in a shaming way, but in a way to make her think and realize that other people have wants and needs and feelings just like she does.
I’m guessing that she doesn’t see these recipients of your charity as “real people”. What she sees is “Mom/Dad want me to give up my toys and I don’t want to.” Maybe a direct reward to her would be in order–for example, give up ten toys, and you can get one new one. Perhaps it would be easier for her to be charitable to people she can see or who she already knows. Maybe shoveling a driveway for an elderly neighbor or volunteering directly somewhere would seem more real to her.
My husband is a Cub Scout leader, and he tried out an ethics program with his boys at a campout last winter. Most of the events were team-building or trust-building exercises, and they were followed up with a discussion. Maybe some of these exercises would be appropriate to try in your family. There is a lot in Scouting about building character–I know this is true for Boy Scouts, but I think Girl Scouts also focuses on it as well.
And, well, she was honest with you about not caring about the kids who don’t have toys! Frankly, I wonder if your son is more unusual than your daughter. (Not that there’s anything wrong with him.)
I don’t know about mauxlicious, but I was 18. However, my excuse is that I was a moron. I didn’t understand how selfish and hurtful my actions were.
I don’t think that is the little one’s problem. I understand exactly what you are talking about. I worked as a camp counselor for three summers and it is shocking how selfish some kids can be. It sounds like you are doing a good job of educating your child, but she is just too young to understand. From my experience she is behaving normally for a child that young.
Psychology tells us that abstract thought is supposed to kick in at around the age of 12. Logic should work sometime then. Some kids have natural empathy some need time to learn it.
Interesting… I’m sure you are already considering this, but I think you are going to need to look for the source of her issues before you can focus on the symptoms (i.e., her behaviors).
The fact that she shows caring and compassion for animals (both real and symbolic, as with her toys) shows that she does have the “wiring” for that sort of thing. The question is, why does that not translate to people? Again, not a psychologist, but my gut reaction is that she sounds like she has some issues with fear of loss or being hurt, and to her animals are “safe”.
I am pretty sure I was like this as a child, and came out of it between about 6 to 10. I think it was a combination of parenting, and my brain developing past egocentrism. The more I understood other people had feelings like me, the more I had insight into “fairness” and actions other then my immediate impulses. The more my brain developed, the less horrible I became. It was due to my parents making sure I learned to use those brain sectors when they developed ( and that I abided by what seemed like arbitrary rules before that). I am impressed with child #1- I would have had a heck of a time managing abstractions and empathizing like that
In fact I suspect most humans do not naturally have much integrity at first, and installing it is one of the primary duties and difficulties of parenting.
I am encouraged that many here were like this as kids. I thoroughly acknowledge that kid 1 is unusually mature and always has been.
FWIW, we never compare the kids. I’m doing it here just to give an accurate picture, but I’ve read enough parenting books to understand that’s a recipe for rebellion.
I also realize there is a positive side to kid 2’s personality. She is always a leader, never a follower (at least I hope that’s a positive) and has naturally high self esteem and confidence.
The other challenge is that kid 2 is exceptionally physically attractive. SHe gets comments daily which imo only emphasises her external qualities and not her internal ones. Kid 1-not such a looker-so his internal qualities were always what was praised by outsiders. Not sure if this has influenced things or not.
I have more to comment on, but I’m out of time. I have to go punish kid 2 (just kidding)
I think you have a relative rarity in kid 1. I’m not a child psychologist (it would be great if one would chime in here) but I don’t think it’s normal child development for a 5 year old to grok giving away some of her toys to the disadvantaged. How about setting her up in some situations where she does good for others without making a sacrifice herself? For example, you all buy gifts to donate and she gets to wrap them and be praised for doing a good job? I think the combination of sacrifice + helping is pretty complex for age 5. Building on her compassion for animals also seems like a good idea.
There are many children’s stories that illustrate the negative consequences of lying. If you read to her, can you put some of those in regular rotation? The existence of such stories points to this being a common problem throughout the ages. Also, make sure that lying brings it’s own set of punishments. For example, eating the chocolate Santa = 1 day without privileges, lying about it equals another day without privileges.
Frankly, I wonder if your son is more unusual than your daughter. (Not that there’s anything wrong with him.)