OK I watch color TV and when you watch a B&W program like I Love Lucy or Dick Van Dyke you can kind of get an idea what is what color, though I assume you can never be sure.
I was doing some research on old Chicago hospitals and I came across this photo from the early 1900s. The person writing the caption writes
“This is my mother in the red dress sitting down” Link to photo
She has a few other photos of this wedding and indicates a red dress for this person.
Now there is no way to me that dress looks like it could be a red dress.
If you assume the bride is wearing white, and I realize you can’t assume that, but the bridal gown looks almost the same color.
So in additon to that above picture, is there anyway if you have an old B&W picture or even B&W movie you can know what color was what? I guess you can get a general idea but something a bit more specific.
I put this in GQ 'cause I’d be interested to know this a general question rather than just the photo I posted
No, you can’t even get a general idea.
It’s possible to create a chart showing how a particular B&W film will render a particular color, but you will find that many colors map to the same shade of grey. In this case, you don’t even know what the film sensitivity was.
One of my great grandmothers wore a gold wedding dress and one wore a pink one. I agree that that dress doesn’t appear as though it could be red, but if you look at the sleeve against her right arm it’s darker than her arm is.
I remember reading that in early days of filmmaking the colors of makeup on the actors didn’t correspond with the colors you’d see in real life because they didn’t translate well to B&W film, so they’d used things like green cheek color.
Different films have different color sensitivities. Orthochromatic films (which were used first around the 1870’s) rendered red as black, since they were not sensitive to that end of the spectrum. Panchromatic films, introduced ca. 1906, eventually took over about 1920, and have a more realistic color spectrum. So it would be important to know the kind of film used or the exposure date to determine the likely original color.
In the original B&W episodes of The Adventures of Superman, his costume was gray and brown instead of the familiar blue and red so it would film better. I take this as evidence that it’s difficult to tell true colors from a B&W photo.
I’ve heard similar stories from my movie-buff friend. He didn’t mention the make-up, but instead the clothing and furniture. He claimed that, while using strange colors as you suggest, they would also use varying shades of dark and light to try and increase the variety of “colors” the viewer could see.
Unfortunately, that is right in the time when Ortho film was giving way to Pan (1906-1920). Maybe someone with more detailed knowledge of that transition could help – I don’t know if it was a linear transition or something else.
And knowledge of costumes of the time might tell more than film types. Here’s a show I once filmed, Fashions from 1840 to 1920. It might help. (That file is a large, 116MB, WMV file. Depending on your video viewer, you might have to wait for it to download before viewing, and I hope you have a hi-speed Internet connection.)
If we took 3 pictures with red, green and blue filters in black and white, a pretty good color picture could be generated. A plain black and white picture however would not offer any idea about the color.
At this site you can hardly tell the difference between the blues and the pinks.
On the directors commentary of The Man Who Wasn’t There the Coens discuss having to try several different colors for contrast of things because there was no way to know before hand how they would look in B&W.
I’m curious to know how a synesthete can determine the colours, assuming they are primarily viewing the same shades of black, white and grey that others would see. Can you enlighten me, panache45?
AFAIK, reds and red-based colors tend to look much** darker** in b/w than they would to the naked eye - so I’d have to say there’s no way that dress is even remotely red. Pale pink, maybe.
Thanks for the info. I just found it really interesting that the caption said the woman sitting was wearing a red dress. It just looks too light for red, espeically when you compare it with the bride. As I said, maybe the bride had a red wedding dress
But thanks for the info, it’s interesting to know that, in a lot of these historical B&W photos we won’t ever be able to tell the true colors.
Beyond the film response, there is lighting to consider. If it was incandescent (especially old lower temperature bulbs) or even lamp light, then the reds would be brightened considerably. A magnesium flash would give much “truer” color response.
Actually, I think my previous statements about ortho/pan film differences are wrong. (Forgive me, Ortho film was obsolete way before I got into photography, so I only heard about it, never used it). Ortho film is IN-sensitive to red, so on the negative, it would NOT turn dark. (Emulsion turns dark only in the presence of light it is sensitive to, so ortho film can be developed with a dim red safelight on and not be affected.) When printed to paper, light/dark is reversed; light areas print dark and vice-versa, so a light neg (was red) would print dark.
In Panchromatic film, the film emulsion would be more sensitive to red light, and the film would turn darker than ortho. When printed to paper, a dark neg (was red) would print light.
In fact, the “illogical” interpretation of the red end of the spectrum was one reason ortho film gave way to pan.
So, in the final print, a red dress on ortho film = dark
A red dress on pan film = light
Which shows how important it is to know what kind of film was used, or to avoid the 1906-1920 ambiguous era.
In the OP’s photo, might “red dress” mean a dress that is mostly white, but with some red trim? There are certainly bits of trim on it that look darker.
