This thread made me wonder. Is it possible to accurately test for this?
I don’t know if this is relevant to dog order, but one of the things recommended for looking at puppies is to turn them on their backs in your hands and count the time until they start struggling to turn over.
The thinking is that for dogs, being on their backs is a submissive posture, and you can get some idea of their character from how long they’ll put up with it.
Average time before they try to turn over is about 10 - 15 seconds. A puppy who starts struggling right away may turn out aggressive, while one who waits much longer than 15 seconds may be too easily cowed, which can turn into other behavioural problems.
Don’t know how accurate that test is, but I’ve seen it recommended in a few articles on choosing a puppy.
The shelter we adopted our most recent cat from is a no-kill shelter. If the cat doesn’t work out, they’ll take it back. If you find a similar place, they might be willing to let you adopt one contingent on it working out with your existing pets, and swap for a different one if the first one isn’t a good choice.
That’s called an “alpha roll” and it’s no longer recommended. The current thinking being that it’s cruel to the dog and dangerous to the roller.
Actually the Alpha roll is something else entirely - when a dog is misbehaving you roll it on it’s back and cover it with your body to show dominance. You’re correct that it’s not recommended because it doesn’t actully mimic “natural” dog behaviour.
What Northern Piper is talking about is when the dog is a puppy - you’re not trying to dominate it, or cover it with your body - you’re trying to see if the dog trusts you, and is willing to let you manipulate it.
FWIW, when I adopted my pooch two things happened - firstly, he came right up and started playing with me and climbed into my lap. Secondly, when I scooped him up and turned him on his back in my hands he just lay there and let me scratch his tummy. He’s turned out to be the best dog ever - he’s VERY docile which is good as there are small children around him often.
I always wondered what an “alpha roll” was, thanks! My guide puppy-raising manual said about 10 times to never do an “alpha roll” on your puppy, but it never told me what that was!
We are allowed to roll the puppies on their backs (not as punishment, and in a calming way) in order to check their bellies for wounds or irritation, look at their feet and pads, etc. They call this a “puppy layover”.
I don’t have expertise in the area, so I’m willing to admit I could be wrong. But I was of the understanding that the act of physically rolling a dog, as opposed to a dog wilfully rolling, was an aggressive act that could symbolize “intent to kill”. See: Bouvier des Flandres resources for a dog friendly vacation.
Well, sure. But if you have a pet, when he wants to play the “Your dominant and I’m submissive” game, he will actually roll on his back himself and you can scratch his tummy and cover him and shnoogie or whatever it is you do with your dog. This is similar to how submissive and dominant dogs act in the wild - the submissive dog will roll on it’s back and the dominant dog will check things out. However, the dominant pack dog will never try to force another dog onto it’s back - they don’t need to - they’re dominant. If you try to do it to your dog when he’s acting like a turd, he’ll get really, really confused. Hence the reason that the alpha roll isn’t actually very effective for much of anything.
For a puppy: While holding him/her, turn them over on their back, so you’re in effect cradling them in your arms. If the puppy looks you dead in the eye, they are potentially very independent and dominant. If they turn their head aside and avert their eyes, they have a more passive nature.
Saw that one on an episode of Emergency Vets once. The vet was helping a police officer find a suitable replacement bloodhound for the department. Curiously, in that case, the policeman chose a (adorable x10) puppy that kept their eyes locked dead on the vet even when turned over–the vet said something to the effect of, “They might have a battle of wills with this one.”
I believe cats are a bit different; because their social networks are much looser than that of dogs, they don’t have a need for the same kind of hierarchy which helps a dog pack maintain order. I have no idea how you’d go about testing for this in a cat, although watching how the cat interacts with other cats might tell whether or not it’s going to be a bully.
I have several cats, and thinking about them, I really couldn’t say that there was one dominant cat, their interactions tend to be more on an individual basis, with certain cats relating well, badly or ignoring other cats.
Even with dogs, I think that dominance as both a concept and a behaviour is not all that well understood. A lot of the studies have been based on the behaviour of wolves and applied uncritically to domestic dogs, without taking into account the effects of domestication on behaviour. And lately there has been (PDF) some rethinking of interpretations of social dominance in wolves.
This is information about the (PDF) Campbell test of social dominance in dogs mentioned above.
Dominance in dogs is comparative; in general the truly dominant dog is not that common, it’s more about how dogs relate to each other in a particular situation, and it’s not that different for human dog interactions.
If you want a dog as a companion for an existing dog, it’s far better to introduce them first, and see how they get on, since it’s the interaction which is important. It’s sort of like introducing your friends; it’s just about impossible to predict who is going to like each other.
With dogs it’s not often the top or bottom positions which are in doubt, it’s the dogs in the middle rankings, or the unconfident dogs who tend to scrap. If you introduce a very submissive dog to a more dominant dog, or a dominant dog to a more submissive dog, all will, most probably be well, unlike humans, most dogs don’t worry much about their position in the hierarchy, as long as they’re clear what it is.
Watching dogs with each other will give you a clue about their level of dominance in general, but not how they will relate to specific dogs. The more dominant the dog, the less time it will take before another dog accepts his leadership, truly dominant dogs don’t have to fight for pack rank, they simply are, like Gary Cooper walking into a Western saloon. I have currently, the only really dominant dog I’ve ever owned. He gets on well and happily with other dogs and doesn’t get into fights because within about three minutes of meeting a new dog he has established himself as their superior.
If you watch dogs meeting other dogs; the more dominant dogs will stand tall, their tails will be erect from the base of the tail, their ears up, their heads held high, they will look confident. they will put themselves “over” the other dog, heads over the back or even their body over the other dog. The tail might be wagging but it will be wagging slowly back. and. forward. like. that.
The more submissive dog will make himself smaller, head down and turned away, body lowered, no direct eye contact. A very submissive dog will make appeasement gestures, he might lie down and roll over, lick the other dog around the muzzle or lick his own nose and lips. A very, very submissive dog will urinate.
There are some good visuals of the kind of body language I’m talking about here.
A dog who is going to be submissive with humans will show some of the same body language as it would toward a more dominant dog. A dog who approaches you readily, with his head turned slightly away and lowered, with a relaxed body, tail held low and wagging gently is telling you he’s submissive.
You should be able to touch him gently all over, handle his ears, his feet, his mouth, his tail. Patricia McConnell says that dominant dogs don’t like their back feet handled, so gently hold a back foot until the dog tries to pull it away. Hold onto it and see what the dog will do, most dogs will have a try to regain their foot and then just give in, but be careful because some dogs will try and nip.
Caution is advised though … I wouldn’t try any of this if I was a bit unsure about the dog in question. If you approach an dog and it’s looking you right in the eye with its head and tail up, then that dog probably isn’t going to be naturally submissive to humans. Doesn’t mean it’s a bad dog, but it’s going to need more skill and understanding from an owner and trainer than a dog with an easier going approach to life.
There’s some good information about social dominance in dogs here.