Canada gives up on their military. I wonder who they're depending on now?

The BBQ Pit
181

Now, Orbifold:

First of all, pay. According to the Forces’ own Web site, the absolute lowest possible rate of pay for a Canadian soldier is about $24,000 a year plus benefits, for a recruit (Private-1.) That jumps to $30,000 a year at Private-2, which is achieved within a year, IIRC. Corporals get $42,000 to $43,000, master corporals $43K to $47K, sergeants get up to $50K, and that’s standard rate; specialist pay rates are up to 10-15% higher, plus field pay, danger pay, aircrew pay, etc. Officers start around $35K-$40K for lieutenants - it’s a much more variable scale, depending how you entered the service - jumping to $56K or so for captains. The benefits plan is good and the pension plan very advantageous. I can only conclude Mr. Mercer was full of shit, even crediting him for presumably lower rates in 1996.

And bear in mind that private and corporals, especially, also get some non-cash subsidies. Frankly, the notion that Canadian soldiers are forced to live in the poorhouse is total BS. A job that pays $30K after one year of experience plus full benefits, and up to $40K and higher after 3-4 years, and you can retire with a full pension in just 20 years. Vacation is nice - 4 weeks to start, 5 weeks after five years. It’s a pretty damned good job for a career that only requires a high school diploma.

It’s certainly a hard job and it would be nice if you could pay every soldier $200,000 a year and buy them a Jaguar, but you can’t. I do recognize that a soldier’s having to relocate every 3-7 years makes things difficult. Six month deployments - to places like, you know, Afghanistan, where we fought to help defend the United States - are tremendously stressful on families. But by any objective standard the rates of pay are fair.

As to Buliwyf’s point, I am not suggesting the Forces is perfect in any way. Of coruse there are many areas where improvement is needed. Yes, we probably SHOULD spend a little more than we do and I can think of ways to free up the money. That said, I have argued many times that the Forces badly allocates its funding - an argument also made by a heck of a lot of observers who know more than I do - and thatt he Forces is top-heavy, hands out capital contracts with the sort of incompetence and political influence we have grown to expect from our government, etc. etc. Giving the Forces a huge windfall of dough without fixing its other problems would likely result in a great deal of wasted money.

Yes, we need new helicopters and new tanks. Yes, a heavy lift capability would be awfully useful. Yes, we need to fire some generals. I’m in favour of all those things.

However, the same can be said of MOST armies. Comparing us with the immensely rich U.S. armed forces is a silly comparison - we’ll never match that. The Canadian Forces could certainly be better, but that does not mean it’s useless, or that in the words of the OP, we’ve “given up” and have started relying on the USA to protect us - that’s one of those excluded middle arguments ElvisL1ves is so fond in reading into other people’s arguments but ignoring in his own. Canada DOES have some degree of military capacity. We DO have capable fighter jets that have proven their worth in several wars, we do have a reasonably powerful surface navy, and the Army does seem capable of fighting with great skill at some level, at least.

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We are very peaceful and tend not to be aggressive with others therefore our chance of attack is slim (at least if you use reason, which terrorists generally don’t so they don’t fall into this likelihood).

However, we will be there should you need us, whether we limp or lead - hope we can say the same. Therefore, we should be able to depend on each other just like any other neighbourly relationship. I, as a Canadian, am sorry you don’t feel that way and look upon it as reliance.

However, as a Canadian whose husband has a best friend who is an American, I know that fortunately your attitude is not shared by all. Our American friend says he can be here in four hours if we ever needed him in an emergency, same goes for us.

Airman doors, you may learn a lesson from him.

183

I have no problem helping a friend. But if said friend decides that he can just mooch off of me, do you think I should be happy about it?

184

Canada hasn’t mooched off the US and isn’t likely to. In fact, we came to your defence by sending troops to Afghanistan. There is no way Canada could protect itself from a superpower and there is no point in going to the expense to attempt such a riduculous plan.

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Oh, and one more thing, the older Canadian gentleman my husband did some work for recently, who was in the FIRST GROUP of troops on Dieppe, who also landed with 53 men and came off with four, and was trained to blow things up,and went ahead to clear the way for other country’s troops, the stories he told my husband which almost brought him to tears and, if we stop all the fresh water, lumber, fish and various other things we ship to you…where would you be?

I have no desire to enter into a contest with you about who does more in the relationship, I am content to leave it as is. Yes, we have an underfunded military … however we have we many other things to offer you…and I think, in the end, it would come out even (as you said, it’s not in your best interest to let Canada go).

On a very personal note, I am deeply offended you, as an American feel this wayand sorry that I ever read your post. I am however, taking note of the positive posts by others and trying to let that cheer me up.

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I have yet to see any “mooching” proven on this thread, other than by bald assertion.

187

You know what Airman? Aside from the first fuck off I’ve tried to civilly discuss this with you. I’ve pointed out the lack of credible threat, the fact that the US spends nothing covering this area you wouldn’t do anyway, the fact that we meet all of our obligations, though perhaps in a way you don’t approve off. All that and all I get from you is silence or thumb sucking noises as you complain about all the dastardly “mooching” Canada does.

I’m getting the feeling I was right the first time.

Now focus. Is your problem with Canadians disregarding their military or that we don’t do as much as you or Elvis would like us to do?

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I’ll tell you what, Grey. My comments were based upon an article describing the decline of your miltary forces over a decade due to neglect. There’s still the possibility that that may be reversed, as others have said in this thread.

If the downward spiral continues, I’ll renew my claim. Until then, I’ll reserve any more comments and give you the benefit of the doubt. Is that acceptable to you?

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Until you can prove that Canada is disbanding it military, costing the US money, not meeting its treaty obligations and explicitly expecting the US to put American lives on the line for us while we watch, yeah, you can reserve judgment.

190

That is one of the most dishonest, misdirection-happy, weaselly responses I’ve seen on this board since a certain poster named after teh twelfth month of the year was banned.

Your claim was not just that Canada is “neglecting” its armed forces, but that CANADA IS MOOCHING OFF THE UNITED STATES.

I will ask this question once again, even though you have refused to answer it, as have all the rest of the people who have claimed this; Mooching what? How is the United States out anything? We have spent oodles of money to defend you. What marginal cost have you incurred defending us? It’s a really simple question; what have you given up to defend Canada? What money have you spent you would not have spent if we had a bigger army? What’s being mooched? Which country is defending which? Seems to me WE’VE put considerable effort into defending YOU. Where’s the payback, buckwheat?

You are accusing my country of mooching off yours. You’re besmirching my nationality. I’ll be damned if I’ll do the same to you, but I would really appreciate it if you would kindly show me exactly WHAT we’ve mooched off you. Money? Equipment? Lives? Be a man and either support your argument or retract it. “I’ll reserve more comments” is bullshit. You made an accusation, now either back it up or retract it completely.

191

American here…just want to say "Thank you, Canada. Please excuse Airman Doors, USAF. He hasn’t been eating his bran muffin lately, and is feeling a bit out of sorts. Now, will you please get Celine Dion the hell out of our country? Pretty please?"

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No.

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You know Doors, you can suck my fucking dick you obnoxious, arrogant shit-faced asshole.

The bONLY** “mooching” that has happened between our two countries in recent history is the “mooching” that the US has done. I noticed on 9-11 when Canada steped up the place, no one in the US was saying “No thanks - we don’t need the help.” I noticed in subsequent months when Canadians were donating money and blood, myself included, to help out, no one in the US was saying “No - we don’t need it.” In fact - your moronic leader wasn’t even savy enough to say thank you.

Go fuck yourself you ignorant shit-head. As a Canadian, the next time the US has a need that I can help with, I’ll still help, but I’ll be thinking about what a shitty person you are when I do.

Asshole.

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Airman doors has suggested that Canada by it’s present spending policies has displayed a potential for a sort of nebulous and tacit intention to mooch at some unspecified point in the future which may or may not occur… :wink:

How can this insult be atoned for? Pistols at dawn, some swordplay? or a pick-up game of hockey?

195

A hockey stick and a bucket of pucks up the ass perhaps?

But I guess we’d have to mooch the $$ to pay for them…

196

Only if you take Anne Murray – please.

197

…sideways.

198

Hi, I really don’t have anything new to add to this, but I just wanted to join in long enough to tell Junior Birdman to fuck off. Okay, I love America, and they do do a lot of good in the world, but the ones who do the good are obviously not this asshole. Quite aside from his bizarre ranting about HIS OWN military’s policy of going it alone when they deem it necessary, he then goes off on some sickening example (page one) of how vital a strong military is by pointing out how terrible it is that (gasp!) the USSR lost control of things in Central Europe and can’t bitchslap Czechoslovakia and Chechnia any more. You know, the U.S. military does a lot to protect freedom all around the world, but that’s because dickheads like you aren’t being promoted to positions where they can make any real decisions. I’ve been to the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Hungary, and believe me, I’d like you to go there too and tell all those people how great it was when the Red Army could smack 'em one.

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I think we might dial it down a bit. Airman’s US military. The man is trained to expect threats and plan accordingly. I’ll also hazard the guess that any reports of the condition Canadian troops deal with gets his empathy. Just understand Airman, the Canadian public isn’t sitting around up here laughing up its collective sleeve at those gullible Americans “defending” us. That kind of thinking is insulting.

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Well, you guys sucked me back into this thread.

Alice,

No, he didn’t. But I will. So, thank you very much, it was appreciated. That is, if you’ll accept appreciation from an “obnoxious, arrogant shit-faced asshole”. But that’s not what we were discussing here, and 9/11 really has nothing to do with it. Sorry.

silenus, there’s really no need to apologize for me. I guess that I’m just living up to the “Ugly American” stereotype that people refer to, although all I’m doing is more or less parroting what some Canadians are saying publicly in the media (cites to come, and you can always look at the original cited article. What follows will be much the same).

zapomel, I didn’t refer negatively in any way to the previous history of Europe. All I did was make a reference to things that actually happened. In addition, not once did I make any “bizarre ranting” about how my country “goes it alone”, except to say that upon reflection I was wrong about Iraq and understood why canada didn’t want anything to do with it. So whatever your deal is, it’s not with me. If it’s with my government, keep in mind that I don’t make policy, I’m simply an instrument of it, and my comments are mine alone.

Grey,

Of course I empathize with the Canadian military. And as the guy that has to go when something happens, I’m always looking to see where potential threats are. I’d be foolish and irresponsible not to, if only to prepare to leave my family in that eventuality.

RickJay, I’m not besmirching your nationality, any more than you do mine when you make negative comments about the United States. You’re entitled to your opinion. So, on to your objections.

I was trying to let this end in reasonable peace. But you’re making me respond, so I’ll give you a few more cites, most of which come from your own countrymen.

"Forces Near Extinction Without Boost (Sorry for the PDF file):

“CANADA’S MILITARY MAY BE MARCHING INTO TROUBLE”:

“Canada disarming itself: study”:

“Belinda Stronach says Canadians deserve better”:

“Under Present Funding Scenario Military Interoperability with the US Could Imperil Canada’s Capacity to Deploy Canadian Forces” (Sorry, another PDF):

There are more, but I think that says enough.

In the interests of fairness, I’ll post a link that has the opposing viewpoint:

“Increased Security Spending Doesn’t Mean Increased Defence Spending”

The article makes multiple points, too numerous to quote here. In fairness, just as some of you have made good points, the article makes good points. The one thing I noticed, however, is that the article never once makes mention of the United States.

I stand by my statement that your military situation is greatly improved by the fact that the United States is bordering you and providing significant continental defense, thus absolving Canada of the need to worry about their own defense, a need that were Canada bordering any other country would be much, much greater.

What’s my conclusion from all the cites I provided? The Canadian military is in serious danger of going the way of the dodo, and that is absolutely tragic, given the history of the forces and the nationalistic pride that results from their existence. But it appears that it may actually happen, which leads to the question posed by my OP: If your military goes away, who will defend Canada?

On to other things. More from RickJay:

What have we given up? Nothing to this point, although I don’t work for the GAO so I can’t really be sure one way or the other. What money would we not have spent? Again, nothing, but if our northern border becomes a vulnerability I can tell you that that will be shored up, at substantial cost, as will northern continental defense. What’s being mooched? Nothing, but if the Canadian Forces go away and we assume unilateral continental defense, you tell me if that’s an equitable deal. I say no. Where’s the payback? If we assume responsibility for the entire continent due to the severe underfunding of the Canadian Forces, the payback is your ability to fund your government in every other respect while living under the security that is provided at no cost to you. Again, not an equitable situation.

Like I said in my attempt to settle this thing down, this is something that is a pending problem. There is still time for the situation with the Canadian Forces to reverse. But if it doesn’t, then what? I think you know what.

After looking through all of those articles, I am forced to draw the conclusion that the reason why there’s so much bitterness in this thread is because 1) I was pretty brutal in my presentation, which I apologize for, and 2) I’m not Canadian, and it sucks to be told what’s what by a foreigner, to which I say this: You aught to be on my end.