Canada gives up on their military. I wonder who they're depending on now?

[Grey]

@featherlou

(Buliwyf, why are so many Canadian soldiers on peacekeeping missions? Why do we need to send Canadian soldiers anywhere? Why can’t they just stay home and defend their own country, should the need arise? I’m not asking to be sarcastic - I truly would like to know this.)

First off, we have obligations to our friends and allies. Historically that covers NATO and NORAD due to the cold war. The preservation of Western Europe was considered critical following WWII. Even today, there is a not so happy Russia, pissed off at the encroachment of Eastern European NATO members into what they consider their sphere of influence. I think Canadian would support the expansion of liberal democratic values into Eastern Europe and that requires security, which entails military commitments.

Secondly, we have thrown our lot in with the UN and multilateralism. Typically defined as liberal western values. While normally this requires diplomatic and economic levers at times it means you bring force to a problem.

Finally, national sovereignty can only be maintained if you can keep people out of you country. If any other nation can do whatever it pleases within your borders you’re not sovereign.

Personally the forces need more money a reduction in staff down on Laurier St.

[Jackknifed_Juggernaut]

@Hamish

You want to know what? We aren’t counting on you. we don’t count on you for anything. We long since gave up that.

Don’t kid yourself. Whether you want to admit it or not, you’re very fortunate that the US is your neighbor. If it wasn’t, there’s a good chance you’d be speaking Russian right now. And if Canada and other allies took better care of their militaries, I would be paying less in taxes today. Since the US is the protector of the western world, it HAS to have the best military.

But don’t get me wrong. The US is doing ONLY what it takes to protect its own interests. Just like Canada. So it’s not an example of charity. But it does bug me that my hard-earned tax dollars have to be used to protect the citizens of other countries. I’d rather have that money used to improve US healthcare and education.

[ElvisL1ves]

@Grey

First off, fuck off.

And likewise, as will become clear.

Secondly, the history of this country is that we ignore the military when not under attack.

That “history of the country” and the smug insularity of it is what **Airman ** quite rightly objects to. Just where the fuck do you guys get the idea that a military is just for self-defense? The world is a damn big place, with a lot of shit going on, and the countries that have an *ability * to do something about it concomitantly have a *responsibility * to do so.

The logistics to do that require either a N.Korea mentality or American GDP. Canadians have made a series of choices to allocate funding away from the military.

Did I mention “fuck off”? Excluded middle there, hoser. Nobody expects any country to be as militaristic as North Korea, but there are obligations to be met anyway. Canada is one of the world’s great industrial democracies, and is certainly able to take on responsibilities proportional to its capacity. But no, you “choose” to be simplys smugly, self-indulgent, and let the Americans do your share of the world’s housekeeping - with that gun culture, we must love it anyway, huh?

However, the idea that America is somehow picking up the tab is laughable.

Fuck off there too. The *per capita * defense expenditure for Canada is only a fifth of the US’s, and far less than any of the other members of NATO, all of whom do understand and accept their responsibilities to a world larger than themselves.

Now go grow the fuck up. A little thought might help you understand what your own country would be like if you didn’t have the luxury of a big brother to protect you. You have no idea what the responsibilities of an industrial democracy entail, but what’s worse, you think you do. A lot of our people have given lives and limbs, and continue to do so, to protect your ability to feel like a morally superior life form. Here’s another “fuck off” to take home with you.

Hamish, those things are all notable, but still amount to token efforts, not substantive ones. If they make you guys feel better about that nagging sense of responsibility, that’s okay, but they ought to make you feel worse that that’s all you’re willing to do.

[alice_in_wonderland]

@Airman Doors

your politicians have sold out your people’s security (and by extension, ours)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Nice try.

The actions of your current administration have done WAAAAAY more to negitively impact US security than this piddly little cut.

Perhaps you should pit them instead.

[Hamish]

@Airman Doors

You can’t even maintain the sovereignty of your own borders now, for Christ’s sake. How is that responsible leadership? It’s not, not at all. And if something happens, who will help? We will, the guard at the other gate. Is it any wonder that people call us the World’s Policeman when we are now performing that duty for our own neighbor?

Canada’s problems maintaining its sovreignty go way beyond just the military.

There’s a mindset among the Mulrouney-era conservative party, and increasingly in the ruling Liberal party, that sees our country as an extension of yours.

That has to stop. But no, we aren’t building our military policy around the assumption you’ll race in and save the day. Our underfunded military is more of a consequence of us not believing there’s much of a risk of attack from any quarter.

[Grey]

@Airman Doors

**I don’t like being a pawn for another country, and with the token defense you have left, that’s what I’ve become. That’s my bitch with the whole deal. You get the cake, you get to eat it, and you get to use my sword to make sure that you do.

While I appreciate that you feel put upon, you’re completely full of shit on this.

You guard the other gate? North America is not a fortress unless the American public wishes to turn it into one. If you want to turn it into one, I fail to see why my country should pick up the tab.

[Otto]

Having exactly the story quoted in the OP as source material, this looks suspiciously like the stories we in the states would often see around October 1st each year. “The Government Is Out Of Money!” the headlines would scream, and the story would go on tho be about the failure of Congress to pass this or that apprpriations bill, but they’d passed a continuing resolution to keep funding programs until things were sorted out. The government never really “ran out of money” and the government never shut down. Well, there was that unpleasantness with Mister Gingrich’s being upset about his seat selection on Air Force One and shuttering things for a while, but other than that the wheels of government continued to be well-greased.

@Airman Doors

OK, right now Canada is in a good solid position, right on the border of the country with the most powerful military in the world. Glad we can provide that security for you.

Out of curiosity, can you point me toward the paragraph in your cite which indicates that Canada’s strategy for dealing with this situation is “depend on the United States to protect us from invasion”?

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

Out of curiosity, can you point me toward the paragraph in your cite which indicates that Canada’s strategy for dealing with this situation is “depend on the United States to protect us from invasion”?

Out of curiousity, can you point me to the paragraph that says that Canada is capable of defending themselves? Out of curiousity, can you describe in detail who is now responsible for the territorial sovereignty of Canada? Their government is abrogating that responsibility, so who will it be?

It’s an obvious and natural conclusion to draw. I’m just glad that we are where we are so nobody will invade Canada. That doesn’t make what Canada’s government is doing the right thing to do.

Incidentally, Alice, you do realize that as one of the largest oil producing countries in the world you’re a ripe target, don’t you? Oh, but only the US needs oil, right?

If our government says that they will keep their hands off and let you fend for yourselves you’ll be rethinking your defense policy quicker than you can polish off a plate of poutine.

Again, glad we can provide that security for you so you can be oh so smug and nonchalant about your current situation.

What’s scary is that you either can’t or won’t even think about what I’m saying.

[Orbifold]

@alice_in_wonderland

That has nothing, whatsoever, to do with this lame ass rant.

I think we can definitely agree on the “ass” part. But unfortunately, I think Airman Doors also resembles the proverbial stopped clock.

You see, when I read crap like this…

@Airman Doors

You can’t even maintain the sovereignty of your own borders now, for Christ’s sake. How is that responsible leadership? It’s not, not at all. And if something happens, who will help? We will, the guard at the other gate.

…it drives home for me exactly why I want Canada to have a greater military presence. Because one of the things I fear late at night is the spectre of the United States deciding that Canada isn’t “responsible” enough to handle the War On Terruh. The last thing I want to see, short of an actual terrorist attack, is U.S. soldiers with Airman Doors’ attitude standing guard at Canadian airports and harbours “for our protection”, and expecting us to thank them for it.

[BlinkingDuck]

I think people think in too short of periods of time and think of the present very good relationship between U.S. and Canada (I know we bicker like in this thread but if you think of the U.S.–Canadian border it really is something – so long and yet so unguarded and trusting by both sides. It is amazing.)

It is always better economically for a country to have a small military. I don’t think there is any denying that (?)

The problem with abandoning your military is that you will be then incapable of defending your sovereignty (like another poster mentioned). It seems like no big deal now but, over time, other countries will challenge that sovereignty. Slowly at first but it could mushroom quickly as other countries realize what is going on.

Sovereignty exists because all people agree that it is what it is. A sovereign nation ACTS like a sovereign nation. If it does not, it risks losing that status. It then has to scramble to reassert itself of it is in big trouble.

Right now, the U.S. (despite one Canadian posters denial) will not allow Canada to be threatened. China, to just pick a country, would not be allowed to come over and annex Canada. The U.S. would not allow it. If the U.S. was to just wink out of existance, Canada would need a sizeable military to protect their sovereignty. So, despite the OP’s beligerent tone, is right in that Canada is relying on the U.S. military to protect them. This appears to be a good thing in that Canada gets the benefit of protection without the cost.

However, this is now. What happens in the future? If Canada does not act like a sovereign nation, will the U.S. continue to treat them as such? Will other countries? 100 years from now? If you think this is far fetched, what would happen if Canada was threatened and the U.S. needed to help. If Canada had little military, the U.S. would need to move into the country to, not just help, but to actually carry the burden of defense. Canada would appear more and more to not be acting like a sovereign nation. It would only be a matter of time before it started to not be treated as one.

Now, maybe this is ‘old fashioned’ thinking. Maybe the world really is different from the past hundreds/thousands of years. Maybe sovereignty is now inherent and not granted based on countries acting sovereign. Maybe…

Do Canadians really wish to take that risk?

JMHO

[laigle]

Um, who are we supposedly defending them from, exactly? The only historic military invader of Canada is the USA. The US military is the only real threat Canada has to worry about, and then only if someone really starts feeding Wolfowitz the scooby snacks.

But really, what’s the theory? We’re holding back China from their incessant attempts to branch out ito hockey? Mexico’s out of trees? This would be comical if it wasn’t a sign of the deep seated militarist paranoia that is destroying the US.

[Grey]

Elvis, typically I’m the one slamming provincial Canadians, so I might not be the best target for your patronizing sermons on the graces of America and the insular smugness of Canadians.

@ElvisL1ves

And likewise, as will become clear.

That “history of the country” and the smug insularity of it is what **Airman ** quite rightly objects to. Just where the fuck do you guys get the idea that a military is just for self-defense? The world is a damn big place, with a lot of shit going on, and the countries that have an *ability * to do something about it concomitantly have a *responsibility * to do so.

No they don’t. They do have a responsibility to meet their treaty obligations, but there’s no obvious responsibility to go traipsing around the world righting wrongs.

@ElvisL1ves

Nobody expects any country to be as militaristic as North Korea, but there are obligations to be met anyway. Canada is one of the world’s great industrial democracies, and is certainly able to take on responsibilities proportional to its capacity. But no, you “choose” to be simplys smugly, self-indulgent, and let the Americans do your share of the world’s housekeeping - with that gun culture, we must love it anyway, huh?

You missed the subtle dig at a world wide American military presence? You missed the point that America would be obligated to be militarily involved in the Canadian portion of North America for selfish reasons whether or not Canada even existed. Hence you would be spending money on defending this area anyway.

@ElvisL1ves

Fuck off there too. The *per capita * defense expenditure for Canada is only a fifth of the US’s, and far less than any of the other members of NATO, all of whom do understand and accept their responsibilities to a world larger than themselves.

That would be the whole peace dividend right? Besides we’re not talking about that are we? We’re talking about the poor put upon Americans having to defend Canada.

@ElvisL1ves

Now go grow the fuck up. A little thought might help you understand what your own country would be like if you didn’t have the luxury of a big brother to protect you. You have no idea what the responsibilities of an industrial democracy entail, but what’s worse, you think you do. A lot of our people have given lives and limbs, and continue to do so, to protect your ability to feel like a morally superior life form. Here’s another “fuck off” to take home with you.

The decisions made by my country aren’t the ones I would’ve made, but I’ll defend them from self righteous, global meddlers like you.

[Exgineer]

@alice_in_wonderland

The actions of your current administration have done WAAAAAY more to negitively impact US security than this piddly little cut.

Perhaps you should pit them instead.

This makes no sense at all.

The remnants of al Queda are hiding in the hills of northern Pakistan, the Iraqi Ba’ath party is gone, Muhammar Khadaffi has thrown in the towel, and Bashir Assad jumps three feet whenever a mouse farts. Not to mention the fact that there haven’t been any more attacks in the US, mostly because the bad guys can’t manage it.

I know a lot of people would really like to believe that we’re worse of now than 2 1/2 years ago, but we’re not.

[Balduran]

@Otto

Having exactly the story quoted in the OP as source material, this looks suspiciously like the stories we in the states would often see around October 1st each year. “The Government Is Out Of Money!” the headlines would scream, and the story would go on tho be about the failure of Congress to pass this or that apprpriations bill, but they’d passed a continuing resolution to keep funding programs until things were sorted out.

You are exactly right. We are expecting a spring federal election. The funding of the military has been a simmering pot for a few years now. Quite a few people here are becomming concerned about it. The minister of defense says he has no plans to close any bases. I suspect and hope more funding will be coming down the pike.

Why Airman Doors decided to be an asshole and jump all over an article like this is beyond me.

[Grey]

Ok, how about this? Someone make a list of possible military threats to Canada that a 10,000 man army, 50 F-18 Super Hornets (we don’t actually have those but we could upgrade) and a 12 ASW frigate navy could deal with.

National sovereignty is another issue, but lets deal with the easy list.

[smiling_bandit]

Grey

Secondly, the history of this country is that we ignore the military when not under attack. Currently we’re not under attack, at least not in the traditional sense. Now, I suppose we could dump massive amounts of money on the military

There is a serious problem with that idea. A modern military cannot simply be thrown together. It takes advanced technology, time to organize and build structure, excess supplies, and most of all training - heavy training. If you don’t do that, you end up with something like Saddam’s troops or the Red Army- men with no pride and no ability.

Hamish

In the unlikely – well nigh unimaginable event – that a country that you were on friendly terms with launched an unprovoked assault on Canada, I think I’d be rather surprised if your nation fulfilled its NATO obligations and helped out.

alice_in_wonderland
L

isten bub, the US doesn’t give a flying fig about Canada and really never has - until the problem is yours it’s not your problem. There’s no one in Canada deluding themselves that the US is going to rush to our defense unless the tanks are on your doorstep.

You really think that? Heh. You truly don’t know us. If you were attacked we’d be the first people to stop the assault. We’d probably have warbirds in the theater before you did. It’s too bad you don’t believe that.

ElvisL1ves

Fuck off there too. The per capita defense expenditure for Canada is only a fifth of the US’s, and far less than any of the other members of NATO, all of whom do understand and accept their responsibilities to a world larger than themselves.

I wouldn’t be so sure many pof the other NAT members are very serious about their spending. German and French military capabilities, among others, have been declining for years.

Orbifold

The last thing I want to see, short of an actual terrorist attack, is U.S. soldiers with Airman Doors’ attitude standing guard at Canadian airports and harbours “for our protection”, and expecting us to thank them for it.

So your opinion is that wwe Americans are planning to take control of Canadian shipping and travel facilities?

[Raygun99]

@smiling bandit

Grey
Orbifold
So your opinion is that wwe Americans are planning to take control of Canadian shipping and travel facilities?

I doubt it’s planned except in some back-room ‘double-secret’ memo, but it’s not hard to imagine a scenario in which that decision would be made, in an Iceland type arrangement.

[Orbifold]

So your opinion is that wwe Americans are planning to take control of Canadian shipping and travel facilities?

No, I said it was one of the things I fear late at night and that it’s the last thing I want to see short of a terrorist attack. The difference was, I thought, obvious.

(“wwe Americans”. Heh. Sorry, I normally hate spelling nit-picks, but this just brought forth a mental image of Brock Lesnar stomping into Pearson airport and taking charge of security…)

[Dante]

You can count at least one Canadian on your side Airman. I think what the government has done to the Canadian military is a disgrace. I’m sure the thought that our neighbours to the south would have to step in and defend us has certainly crossed someone’s mind up on Parliament Hill.

That being said, the article you quoted doesn’t say that we are going to be shutting down our military totally. We’re just going to nickel and dime it slowly into complete ineffectiveness. So it’s not all bad!

Tell you what, you defend us, and we’ll send you beer.

And we’ll take back Celine Dion. <shudder>

[Jackknifed_Juggernaut]

Reading the postings in this thread by Canadians makes me laugh. Are you guys taught the art of self-delusion in school? My wife is Canadian and I have the exact types of “debates” with her family and friends. They insist: “We don’t need a big army because we’re Canadians and other countries like us. It’s only the US that everyone hates and wants to attack.” Puhleeze! You remind me of when I was 18 years old and arguing with my parents: “I don’t need you! I’m an adult and I can take of myself.” Meanwhile they smirked at me and reminded me that they gave me food, shelter, a car, money and college tuition.